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that's audible podcast.com slash power

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cast and now on with the show we have

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another co-host we're adding them in

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droves and this fellow is a superstar

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he's Nicholas Redfern

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he's written lots of books on the

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paranormal he's been a lecturer you've

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heard him on many radio shows not just

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the para cast

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he's been there and he knows an awful

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lot Nikolas congratulations now well

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thanks Janine I appreciate the offer and

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you know looking forward to being on the

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show and get some good conversations and

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discussions going now what attracted you

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at first to explore the contact deep and

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this frames the preamble for the

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discussion which we'll get to in a

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moment

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well personally I've always had an

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interest in the contactee movements when

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I was a kid and first got into UFOs some

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of the the earliest UFO books I read

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were people like Van Tassel Adamski

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Daniel Frye those sorts of people and I

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think you know when you're when you're a

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kid sort of early teens or you know even

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before your team's everything is kind of

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a little bit black and white you know I

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sort of read these stories as well you

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know these people have really met aliens

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and then of course as you get a bit

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older you begin to think hang on you

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know there's a few problems with these

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stories and for a few years I discarded

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them but then later on I began to

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realize that what I in my view

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one of the problems with a lot of people

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reviewing the contactee movement and the

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people in a very black-and-white

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scenario in the sense that these people

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either met

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aliens from Venus or they're lying that

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there was no sort of middle ground but

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the more I dug into it and this is one

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of the sort of areas I'd dig into in the

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book as well is the idea that maybe

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there are other theories to explain the

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contactee movement and I've had a whole

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range of potential theories and ideas

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that might explain some of these

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experiences beyond the literal

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explanations and I also found that

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speaking of conferences a lot of people

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who are new to the subject say the last

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10 15 years really didn't know a great

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deal about the contactees they just

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thought you know oh they were this bunch

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of old guys from 50 years ago who hoaxed

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a bunch of stories about meeting aliens

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in the desert and so I thought well you

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know got all this new material that

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suggests these other ideas and theories

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such as Freedom of Information files

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from the FBI hundreds and hundreds of

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pages on the contactees why not

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couple that with the fact that's you

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know the the audience is today sort of

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not really up to par and up to speed on

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what went on back in those days with the

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contactees and sort of presented for a

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whole new audience you know not just

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going over old ground but trying to

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understand and rationalize actually what

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went on now over the years it looked

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like on the surface there's lots below

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the surface at the contactee movement

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morphed into the abduction scenario yeah

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this is one of the interesting things I

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find about the UFO subject how it seems

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to be forever changing and staying

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literally like one or two steps ahead of

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us for example although there are people

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today who you know might be in their 60s

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and 70s and said they had abduction

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experiences when they were children

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which would have predated you know that

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the contactee movement in terms of what

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was actually published at the time we're

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talking so late forties through the six

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early 60s pretty much up until the time

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of the Betty and Barney Hill case there

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really wasn't too much spoken about

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classic abductions with today's Gray's

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it is almost the case though it seems to

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be the case that you know the contact

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here in Kansas began late forties

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onwards

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then suddenly something happened

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roundabout 1960 61-62

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where they weren't replaced shall we say

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by the graves but they were certainly

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eclipsed by these stories that began to

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surface and which dominated ufology in

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the 70s and the 8 and the space brothers

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and contactees were seen as more like a

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whimsical bygone thing you know from

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several decades earlier so it is kind of

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intriguing and there all sorts of

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theories you know we can get into as to

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how and why the whole contactee movement

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if you like once they went out of date

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that was just eclipsed massively well

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looking at the abduction scenario I

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think one difference key difference

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between the old contactees is that

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George Adamski or a Truman Beth from any

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one of these people they meet someone

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physically remember I met this person

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he's from Mars he's from Venus whatever

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but the abduction scenario is kind of

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muddy because sometimes they do remember

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things sometimes there's a missing time

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and sometimes they have to recall this

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under hypnosis and as you know there's a

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big ground swirl of controversy over the

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use of hypnosis for investigating

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abductions you're aware of course of the

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case involving Emma Woods a woman from

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New Zealand who was subjected to

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telephone based hypnosis by dr. David

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Jacobs who lives in the Philadelphia

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area now the question of course that

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we've been debating on the power cast

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forms in a recent roundtable on the show

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is whether the hypnotic regression has

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any value in determining what really

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happened to anyone what's your feeling

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about this my view is that what are the

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important things to remember with

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hypnotic regression is that the mind is

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rendered into to a degree an altered

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state when anybody's mind is put into an

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altered state whether it's through

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hypnosis drugs whatever you're not in

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your regular state of mind obviously now

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in saying that I don't want people to

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think that I'm a skeptic of the idea

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that abductions are occurring I think in

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some form there is a genuine alien

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abduction phenomenon now whether it

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actually involves literal flesh and

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blood physical aliens you know

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kidnapping people for their DNA egg

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sperm etc in the conventional scenario

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that we all know and understand or you

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know could it be like a Monday

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incarnation of something like incubi and

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succubi encounters which i think you

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know there are a lot of interesting

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parallels there in other words the

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important thing to remember is that when

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you're dealing with hypnosis it may well

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bring out memories but on the other hand

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if those memories are being brought out

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and discussed when the witness it's

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they're sent themselves in an altered

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state of mind in the first place you

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know it's kind of along the lines of

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well how accurate is the information now

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again I wouldn't want people to think

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that I believe these people are lying I

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don't but it's you know it is incredibly

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difficult to rationalize how you can

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take testimony at literal face value

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when the person is relating it under

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hypnosis not you know sitting opposite

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us in a totally open and normal frame of

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mind I think that's one of the important

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things regardless of how accurate

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hypnosis may or may not be the fact is

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that the person needs in an altered

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state well then that raises the bigger

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question here should we even be using

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hypnosis to unearth information about

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abductions because the person's an

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altered state they're suggestible they

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could receive even if they're

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unconscious clues from the hypnotist to

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orient their storage to what the

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hypnotist expects how do we know I mean

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these are all good points I mean I'll

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give you a classic example I once I sat

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in on three abduction interviews this is

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probably going back probably 2000 to

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2003 and this actually was in a hypnotic

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situation I was actually here in Dallas

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Texas where I live and my personal I

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won't name was doing some research and

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actually a gun training course in

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hypnosis they had three women in the

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room who claimed abduction experiences I

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think it was the second woman the

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interviewer the hypnotist if you like or

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the woman under and the first question

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was can you tell me what the aliens look

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like words to that effect now you know

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by bringing up the very notion that this

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was an alien

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cancer and involved aliens that is

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massively leading the witness now I

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don't say that the the person doing the

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interview did it deliberately I don't

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think he did but this is one of the

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things that people who aren't trained

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properly in hypnosis

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tragically forget and massively forget

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is the issue of leading the witness you

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know what color with their eyes or who's

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to say their dies you know what I think

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is we would say I guess Nick said what

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did you see look like to you yeah

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actions that were very basic and let

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them fill in the details as soon as you

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fill in the details they're just going

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to go with a story well that's the

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unfortunate thing is that so many people

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I think they're good intentioned but

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they get very excited about wow you know

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here's a great new abduction story let's

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see what the person has to say and more

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importantly if they've been deeply

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involved in you know dozens of previous

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abduction stories to them it's just

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another abduction case to add to the

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list and so I think there is this

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unconscious tendency subconscious

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tendency if you like to to unconsciously

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fill in the gaps for the for the

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interviewee

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I mean I've seen this happen several

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times you know for example in the same

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particular interview I can remember

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another question related to how the

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woman was taken from her bedroom to

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where the abduction occurred and the

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interviewer said how were you taken to

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the craft or to the UFO well again that

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instills in the mind of the person being

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hypnotized that they would take an on

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board a UFO or a craft you know the

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person should have asked the question

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can you describe to me the nature of

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where the experience occurred and leave

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out all references to UFOs and craft and

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but so many don't do that and they don't

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see a problem in either unfortunately if

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something we're going to explore more in

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a few moments especially also the

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history of the original contactees and

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we'll be joined by someone who knew many

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of the contactees he actually met them

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and talked to them and has some

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interesting memories to present Nick

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Redfern joins us as Co

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00:11:10,030 --> 00:11:03,890
we'll be meeting Jim Mosely on the other

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00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:10,040
side of the para caste hi this is Tamar

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298
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you can talk to fellow listeners just go

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forum links that's the forum links at

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as you know the power cast is brought to

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you by audible.com the internet's

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Timothy good as you know has been a

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guest on the power cast for this book or

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go to audiblepodcast.com/tekzilla Jane

318
00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:08,660
and I'm with the Coalition for freedom

319
00:13:15,250 --> 00:13:10,850
of information and you are listening to

320
00:13:17,410 --> 00:13:15,260
the podcast Nick Redfern we're joined by

321
00:13:20,680 --> 00:13:17,420
Jim Mosley we're talking about Nick's

322
00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:20,690
book contactees a history of alien human

323
00:13:26,410 --> 00:13:23,690
interaction and it's published by new

324
00:13:28,450 --> 00:13:26,420
page so you can get a copy or you'll see

325
00:13:30,460 --> 00:13:28,460
a link at the power cast site if you

326
00:13:33,100 --> 00:13:30,470
click on that site by the way and click

327
00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:33,110
on that link it takes you to Amazon so

328
00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:34,850
we get two or three cents per copy that

329
00:13:38,980 --> 00:13:37,250
you buy that's all it's worth believe me

330
00:13:42,730 --> 00:13:38,990
Amazon is a lot cheaper and they used to

331
00:13:45,730 --> 00:13:42,740
be Jim now you started real early in the

332
00:13:48,850 --> 00:13:45,740
UFO field who was the first UFO

333
00:13:51,010 --> 00:13:48,860
contactee you met well I was just

334
00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:51,020
thinking about all I was waiting to

335
00:13:59,080 --> 00:13:55,450
start the program I first went out to

336
00:14:02,190 --> 00:13:59,090
Southern California in 1953 and that was

337
00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:02,200
part of a trip around the country I made

338
00:14:07,150 --> 00:14:04,370
interviewing people that had been

339
00:14:10,180 --> 00:14:07,160
mentioned in the early saucer books as

340
00:14:13,330 --> 00:14:10,190
having seen something and interviewing

341
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:13,340
scientists and other people that might

342
00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:15,170
have something important to say on the

343
00:14:20,140 --> 00:14:18,170
subject but they answer your question as

344
00:14:23,230 --> 00:14:20,150
far as I can remember I don't think I

345
00:14:25,990 --> 00:14:23,240
met any of the contactees on that first

346
00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:26,000
trip except George Adamski and I made a

347
00:14:32,490 --> 00:14:28,450
point of going to interview them

348
00:14:35,250 --> 00:14:32,500
I met the rest of the contactees a few

349
00:14:38,190 --> 00:14:35,260
years later as I started going out to

350
00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:38,200
some of the conventions I'm jealous

351
00:14:43,980 --> 00:14:41,410
giant Virata clever run by George Byrne

352
00:14:46,199 --> 00:14:43,990
castle and so that's how I finally met

353
00:14:49,139 --> 00:14:46,209
them I never got to know any of them

354
00:14:51,660 --> 00:14:49,149
very well but justice everyone else but

355
00:14:55,350 --> 00:14:51,670
me that knew them at all seems to have

356
00:14:59,280 --> 00:14:55,360
passed on out of this mortal coil I have

357
00:15:01,860 --> 00:14:59,290
now by dint of having survived this long

358
00:15:04,620 --> 00:15:01,870
because I'm an expert on the contract

359
00:15:07,710 --> 00:15:04,630
keys so that answers your question Jim

360
00:15:10,019 --> 00:15:07,720
now at the time in the early days of the

361
00:15:12,420 --> 00:15:10,029
UFO field we all felt the contactees

362
00:15:14,610 --> 00:15:12,430
were just cooks there were crazies

363
00:15:15,990 --> 00:15:14,620
what was your personal reaction when

364
00:15:19,530 --> 00:15:16,000
meeting some of these people and talking

365
00:15:23,490 --> 00:15:19,540
to them well how can I put it I never

366
00:15:26,910 --> 00:15:23,500
thought they were crazy I did think they

367
00:15:30,470 --> 00:15:26,920
were making it up in all probability and

368
00:15:34,620 --> 00:15:30,480
I still do I think Nick in his book

369
00:15:37,079 --> 00:15:34,630
states correctly that some of them or

370
00:15:41,610 --> 00:15:37,089
maybe all of them had some core

371
00:15:45,329 --> 00:15:41,620
experience that they actually did have

372
00:15:47,220 --> 00:15:45,339
and then they added to that and build on

373
00:15:49,740 --> 00:15:47,230
and took advantage of it that is

374
00:15:52,980 --> 00:15:49,750
possible but in general the more

375
00:15:55,530 --> 00:15:52,990
conservative people in the UFO field of

376
00:15:58,050 --> 00:15:55,540
whom I was certainly one did not take

377
00:16:01,680 --> 00:15:58,060
them seriously and did not believe them

378
00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:01,690
at that time and that's pretty much how

379
00:16:05,850 --> 00:16:03,730
I felt was there a point in time where

380
00:16:07,259 --> 00:16:05,860
you began to feel you know what maybe

381
00:16:10,380 --> 00:16:07,269
they've got something going on here

382
00:16:13,530 --> 00:16:10,390
maybe at the core of all this there's

383
00:16:15,930 --> 00:16:13,540
something real that happened to them yes

384
00:16:18,290 --> 00:16:15,940
well as I say expansion said in his book

385
00:16:22,380 --> 00:16:18,300
and I think he makes a very good point

386
00:16:26,730 --> 00:16:22,390
it's no use to just dismiss every last

387
00:16:28,740 --> 00:16:26,740
word they say out of hand just believe

388
00:16:32,430 --> 00:16:28,750
that there is nothing to it at the very

389
00:16:34,590 --> 00:16:32,440
least I think they had a philosophy that

390
00:16:36,150 --> 00:16:34,600
they were trying to get across and that

391
00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:36,160
they were sincere about

392
00:16:42,450 --> 00:16:39,850
and they used these underhanded means

393
00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:42,460
perhaps I'm thinking particularly of

394
00:16:47,210 --> 00:16:43,570
George Adamski

395
00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:47,220
in order to look at across you might say

396
00:16:53,460 --> 00:16:50,170
philosophical beliefs that they felt

397
00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:53,470
they're very serious about but they

398
00:16:58,560 --> 00:16:56,170
realized that correctly that if they

399
00:17:02,010 --> 00:16:58,570
just said well I'm George Adamski and I

400
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:02,020
believe so so who would care but if he's

401
00:17:08,610 --> 00:17:06,010
had some exciting unique experience with

402
00:17:12,030 --> 00:17:08,620
the space people and if they told him

403
00:17:14,370 --> 00:17:12,040
the same thing that he already believed

404
00:17:17,490 --> 00:17:14,380
anyhow why then that's something people

405
00:17:19,679 --> 00:17:17,500
would enjoy reading about and would take

406
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:19,689
him seriously isn't it also true that

407
00:17:24,990 --> 00:17:21,730
Adamski actually wrote a book some years

408
00:17:28,740 --> 00:17:25,000
before his flying saucers have landed

409
00:17:31,890 --> 00:17:28,750
where he actually put the same beliefs

410
00:17:33,750 --> 00:17:31,900
in a different format yeah I'm trying to

411
00:17:36,780 --> 00:17:33,760
remember the name of that book it's

412
00:17:39,390 --> 00:17:36,790
there probably now that was nice me a

413
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:39,400
pioneers of space however that didn't

414
00:17:44,310 --> 00:17:42,010
correspond in his first book which was

415
00:17:47,820 --> 00:17:44,320
flying saucer landed I they could

416
00:17:50,060 --> 00:17:47,830
correspond it more closely with inside

417
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:50,070
the spaceships which was the second book

418
00:17:56,850 --> 00:17:53,610
there's no doubt that the danske

419
00:17:59,040 --> 00:17:56,860
recycled those things but as to the

420
00:17:59,970 --> 00:17:59,050
question of whether he was telling the

421
00:18:02,820 --> 00:17:59,980
truth or not

422
00:18:06,150 --> 00:18:02,830
I had one bit of evidence that I don't

423
00:18:09,690 --> 00:18:06,160
have anymore actually after all these

424
00:18:13,470 --> 00:18:09,700
years but in writing to a friend of his

425
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:13,480
named Gerald Baker who was a close

426
00:18:21,750 --> 00:18:17,770
coworker Dan skis in the early days and

427
00:18:23,730 --> 00:18:21,760
I actually got a photocopy of this

428
00:18:26,730 --> 00:18:23,740
letter from Baker who I got to know

429
00:18:29,110 --> 00:18:26,740
fairly well in later years and it says

430
00:18:31,470 --> 00:18:29,120
there the one thing I remember

431
00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:31,480
clearly and the most important thing

432
00:18:38,110 --> 00:18:35,330
yeah but it says there is sometimes you

433
00:18:40,450 --> 00:18:38,120
have to use the back door to get the

434
00:18:44,799 --> 00:18:40,460
truth across and that was the exact

435
00:18:47,500 --> 00:18:44,809
words that I saw I danske had written to

436
00:18:51,340 --> 00:18:47,510
the strength of his so I I think that's

437
00:18:54,070 --> 00:18:51,350
maybe a very concise true statement of

438
00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:54,080
how advanced he felt now Nick maybe you

439
00:19:00,970 --> 00:18:57,410
can answer this in your investigation of

440
00:19:03,490 --> 00:19:00,980
these old-time contactees or pioneer

441
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:03,500
contactees did you find any smoking guns

442
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:06,290
to expose them as having just made up

443
00:19:10,570 --> 00:19:08,330
everything out of whole cross well you

444
00:19:12,580 --> 00:19:10,580
know I think you know I broadly agree

445
00:19:14,290 --> 00:19:12,590
with with Jim where I do think some of

446
00:19:16,780 --> 00:19:14,300
them had core experiences and I think

447
00:19:19,270 --> 00:19:16,790
one of the biggest problems with the

448
00:19:21,370 --> 00:19:19,280
contactee movement is that people look

449
00:19:22,780 --> 00:19:21,380
at the experiences the people literally

450
00:19:25,510 --> 00:19:22,790
in the sense that they either met

451
00:19:26,049 --> 00:19:25,520
longhead aliens from Venus or they made

452
00:19:27,669 --> 00:19:26,059
it all up

453
00:19:30,340 --> 00:19:27,679
I think the truth is actually more

454
00:19:32,260 --> 00:19:30,350
subtle so you know in terms of like Jim

455
00:19:33,940 --> 00:19:32,270
said that they had philosophies that

456
00:19:35,770 --> 00:19:33,950
they actually believed and so in some

457
00:19:38,290 --> 00:19:35,780
respects they felt doing what was

458
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:38,300
necessary to promote those philosophies

459
00:19:43,450 --> 00:19:40,730
was okay you know if he sort of quotes

460
00:19:45,250 --> 00:19:43,460
spread the cosmic word now in that

461
00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:45,260
respect sort of trying to your question

462
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:48,290
I think yes there are a number of

463
00:19:55,450 --> 00:19:51,650
smoking guns that that do present some

464
00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:55,460
of the contactees in a bad light but

465
00:19:59,799 --> 00:19:57,650
does that mean that something didn't

466
00:20:03,450 --> 00:19:59,809
happen to them or does it mean that they

467
00:20:05,590 --> 00:20:03,460
expanded upon something for their own

468
00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:05,600
motivations which they perceived as

469
00:20:08,049 --> 00:20:07,370
being worthwhile now I'll give you an

470
00:20:12,310 --> 00:20:08,059
example

471
00:20:14,140 --> 00:20:12,320
you know Jim talked about a gang ski you

472
00:20:16,390 --> 00:20:14,150
know quote using the back door to get a

473
00:20:18,970 --> 00:20:16,400
message across well I got ahold of

474
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:18,980
George Adamski FBI file which actually

475
00:20:24,549 --> 00:20:21,650
includes a section where the FBI had got

476
00:20:27,610 --> 00:20:24,559
someone to analyze some of Adamski's

477
00:20:30,250 --> 00:20:27,620
photographs they did quite an extensive

478
00:20:31,510 --> 00:20:30,260
study of it and basically came back

479
00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:31,520
saying you know these photographs are

480
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:34,370
bogus so you know you could argue that a

481
00:20:38,830 --> 00:20:35,890
smoking gun

482
00:20:40,259 --> 00:20:38,840
drastically effects Adamski's

483
00:20:42,269 --> 00:20:40,269
credibility

484
00:20:43,919 --> 00:20:42,279
again the big issue is did he fake

485
00:20:45,979 --> 00:20:43,929
everything or did he create the

486
00:20:48,180 --> 00:20:45,989
photographs as a means to further

487
00:20:50,699 --> 00:20:48,190
bolster the message which try to portray

488
00:20:52,829 --> 00:20:50,709
so in other words the answer as to

489
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:52,839
whether or not there are smoking guns to

490
00:20:56,909 --> 00:20:55,330
prove these people were fakes isn't as

491
00:20:59,369 --> 00:20:56,919
clear as it seems to be it's more of

492
00:21:02,820 --> 00:20:59,379
like a gray area shall we say no pun

493
00:21:06,419 --> 00:21:02,830
intended you know I had something to it

494
00:21:09,829 --> 00:21:06,429
and again you may know more than I do if

495
00:21:13,199 --> 00:21:09,839
you have visa the guy vile snitch but I

496
00:21:16,409 --> 00:21:13,209
am quite sure from several things that

497
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:16,419
I've read that the FBI and other

498
00:21:22,919 --> 00:21:19,690
government agencies and conservative

499
00:21:26,459 --> 00:21:22,929
people in general were concerned about

500
00:21:30,479 --> 00:21:26,469
the contactees because they were talking

501
00:21:33,269 --> 00:21:30,489
about peace and love and things like

502
00:21:35,159 --> 00:21:33,279
that which sound alright but if you are

503
00:21:39,409 --> 00:21:35,169
right-wing enough that sounds for a

504
00:21:43,469 --> 00:21:39,419
communistic and there was a feeling

505
00:21:45,619 --> 00:21:43,479
wherever there was the establishment of

506
00:21:49,579 --> 00:21:45,629
this country I think that these people

507
00:21:51,810 --> 00:21:49,589
were influenced by or spreading

508
00:21:55,499 --> 00:21:51,820
communist or Pro communist propaganda

509
00:21:59,430 --> 00:21:55,509
and that was something that was taken

510
00:22:00,149 --> 00:21:59,440
very seriously and in a negative way am

511
00:22:02,039 --> 00:22:00,159
i right now

512
00:22:04,079 --> 00:22:02,049
you're absolutely right Jim I mean I'll

513
00:22:07,709 --> 00:22:04,089
give you an example again just to pull

514
00:22:10,469 --> 00:22:07,719
on Adamski's FBI file there's actually a

515
00:22:13,319 --> 00:22:10,479
whole section in that file where the FBI

516
00:22:15,599 --> 00:22:13,329
investigated where Adamski given the

517
00:22:17,009 --> 00:22:15,609
lecture and somebody had asked him what

518
00:22:19,049 --> 00:22:17,019
sort of government do you think the

519
00:22:20,969 --> 00:22:19,059
aliens have and he said they probably

520
00:22:23,399 --> 00:22:20,979
have communists and he said something

521
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:23,409
almost words to the effective that's the

522
00:22:27,229 --> 00:22:24,369
way of the future

523
00:22:30,089 --> 00:22:27,239
and of course you know this is 1953

524
00:22:32,310 --> 00:22:30,099
America McCarthyism Reds under the beds

525
00:22:34,619 --> 00:22:32,320
etc and he was actually from that point

526
00:22:36,930 --> 00:22:34,629
onwards that the FBI if you read their

527
00:22:39,569 --> 00:22:36,940
file it's clear that before that time he

528
00:22:42,029 --> 00:22:39,579
was seen as a bit of like a cultist type

529
00:22:43,889 --> 00:22:42,039
character who could influence people a

530
00:22:45,509 --> 00:22:43,899
free started making these claims about

531
00:22:47,489 --> 00:22:45,519
communism and going on the lecture

532
00:22:49,169 --> 00:22:47,499
circuit and selling thousands and

533
00:22:51,060 --> 00:22:49,179
thousands of books the FBI actually

534
00:22:51,389 --> 00:22:51,070
declared him afterwards a security

535
00:22:52,940 --> 00:22:51,399
matter

536
00:22:56,210 --> 00:22:52,950
that's actually wording they

537
00:22:58,370 --> 00:22:56,220
now what's interesting is that George

538
00:23:00,260 --> 00:22:58,380
Van Tassel I got hold of his FBI file

539
00:23:02,410 --> 00:23:00,270
which is actually no less than three

540
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:02,420
hundred and ninety eight pages long and

541
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:07,050
that file talks about how the SBI were

542
00:23:10,940 --> 00:23:09,690
concerned about Van Tassel's lectures

543
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:10,950
where he was talking about the US

544
00:23:16,790 --> 00:23:13,530
economy and how perhaps you know it

545
00:23:18,980 --> 00:23:16,800
could be bettered etc and the SBI

546
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:18,990
actually made note in one of the

547
00:23:23,780 --> 00:23:21,690
documents to try and find out who it was

548
00:23:26,420 --> 00:23:23,790
there was funding Van Tassel's

549
00:23:27,980 --> 00:23:26,430
newsletters and publications and if you

550
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:27,990
read between the lines it's quite clear

551
00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:29,970
they were worried that you know some

552
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:32,130
sort of foreign power was using these

553
00:23:36,380 --> 00:23:34,050
people and wittingly as GM said to

554
00:23:39,500 --> 00:23:36,390
spread communism and Truman bathroom

555
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:39,510
made similar claims and Orfeo Angelo Chi

556
00:23:43,940 --> 00:23:41,250
one of the earlier contactees as well I

557
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:43,950
mentioned in the book actually said that

558
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:46,290
when he was touring on the East Coast at

559
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:47,970
one point he was approached by what he

560
00:23:53,540 --> 00:23:50,010
described as quote a mysterious group

561
00:23:56,330 --> 00:23:53,550
who wanted to have him sort of slant his

562
00:23:58,220 --> 00:23:56,340
lectures quote along the party line so

563
00:24:00,290 --> 00:23:58,230
but definitely were people who were

564
00:24:03,170 --> 00:24:00,300
trying to I guess influenced the

565
00:24:05,150 --> 00:24:03,180
contactees to spread communism now

566
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:05,160
whether it was the Russians you know

567
00:24:10,250 --> 00:24:07,890
some sort of left-wing group in the US

568
00:24:13,100 --> 00:24:10,260
or you know somebody else entirely we

569
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:13,110
don't know that I'm not sure but this I

570
00:24:16,820 --> 00:24:14,730
think was one of the foremost reasons

571
00:24:18,860 --> 00:24:16,830
why the FBI was watching the contactees

572
00:24:21,500 --> 00:24:18,870
I think in some respect the UFO

573
00:24:23,930 --> 00:24:21,510
encounter angle was secondary the FBI

574
00:24:25,700 --> 00:24:23,940
were concerned about the effect that the

575
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:25,710
contactees would have done the mindset

576
00:24:29,300 --> 00:24:28,050
of the US population kind of like you

577
00:24:31,130 --> 00:24:29,310
know the whole flower power thing in the

578
00:24:33,470 --> 00:24:31,140
60s which was perceived by the

579
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:33,480
government as being a threat because he

580
00:24:37,550 --> 00:24:36,090
was a threat to the old order and you

581
00:24:40,010 --> 00:24:37,560
know the quote the old men in suits

582
00:24:42,860 --> 00:24:40,020
didn't want the old order changing and I

583
00:24:45,500 --> 00:24:42,870
think they did do you think that there

584
00:24:49,010 --> 00:24:45,510
were groups or individuals that were

585
00:24:52,990 --> 00:24:49,020
actually putting communistic thoughts or

586
00:24:56,390 --> 00:24:53,000
statements into the minds of these

587
00:24:58,360 --> 00:24:56,400
contactees and if so what groups would

588
00:25:00,710 --> 00:24:58,370
they have been

589
00:25:03,529 --> 00:25:00,720
well you know I mean if you read the

590
00:25:06,380 --> 00:25:03,539
FBI's files the the FBI were actually

591
00:25:07,909 --> 00:25:06,390
sure this this was going on you know

592
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:07,919
that they were highly concerned about

593
00:25:12,049 --> 00:25:09,330
the fact that you know George Adamski

594
00:25:13,970 --> 00:25:12,059
first book flying saucers landed sold

595
00:25:16,250 --> 00:25:13,980
thousands and thousands of copies

596
00:25:18,169 --> 00:25:16,260
literally tens of thousands and as I

597
00:25:22,370 --> 00:25:18,179
said there's a whole section in his file

598
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:22,380
about his views on communism how you

599
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:24,090
felt the aliens are communists now I

600
00:25:28,820 --> 00:25:26,730
will admit however that who was doing

601
00:25:31,850 --> 00:25:28,830
this or who might have been trying to

602
00:25:35,330 --> 00:25:31,860
encourage or fear Angelou she or a damn

603
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:35,340
school bathroom to kind of mutate their

604
00:25:40,730 --> 00:25:38,010
lectures and conferences to come around

605
00:25:42,710 --> 00:25:40,740
to more like a left-wing type thinking

606
00:25:45,799 --> 00:25:42,720
I'll be the first to admit that the

607
00:25:48,529 --> 00:25:45,809
files don't tell us who who that is what

608
00:25:51,590 --> 00:25:48,539
the group might have been etc etc but

609
00:25:54,230 --> 00:25:51,600
you know the the fact that the FBI were

610
00:25:55,820 --> 00:25:54,240
hot on the trail of it seems to me it

611
00:25:58,430 --> 00:25:55,830
would suggest that somewhere behind

612
00:26:01,490 --> 00:25:58,440
closed doors a conversation had gone on

613
00:26:03,590 --> 00:26:01,500
between you know official bodies saying

614
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:03,600
hey this looks like what's going on

615
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:05,490
let's try and get to the bottom of it

616
00:26:10,519 --> 00:26:08,610
now Angelou himself called these people

617
00:26:11,870 --> 00:26:10,529
a mysterious group you know he wasn't

618
00:26:13,399 --> 00:26:11,880
like he was talking about the American

619
00:26:15,850 --> 00:26:13,409
Communist Party or something like that

620
00:26:17,630 --> 00:26:15,860
it seems almost you know like

621
00:26:19,399 --> 00:26:17,640
infiltrators that's you know I

622
00:26:21,289 --> 00:26:19,409
speculating the book could it have been

623
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:21,299
the Russians you know sort of Deep Cover

624
00:26:26,659 --> 00:26:24,330
agents I mean you know that kind of gets

625
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:26,669
into more x-files territory until you

626
00:26:32,390 --> 00:26:29,010
realize it was an area of the FBI was

627
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:34,889
[Music]

628
00:26:39,519 --> 00:26:37,250
picture this you're on the phone with a

629
00:26:42,700 --> 00:26:39,529
client or colleague trying to explain

630
00:26:44,919 --> 00:26:42,710
something visual a PowerPoint a keynote

631
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:44,929
presentation a website but it's

632
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:47,570
frustrating because they can't see what

633
00:26:52,299 --> 00:26:49,610
you're talking about the solution good

634
00:26:55,899 --> 00:26:52,309
news they can if you invite them to an

635
00:26:58,240 --> 00:26:55,909
online meeting using GoToMeeting then

636
00:27:00,760 --> 00:26:58,250
they can see your computer desktop on

637
00:27:02,409 --> 00:27:00,770
their computer screen so you can show

638
00:27:04,060 --> 00:27:02,419
them what you're talking about

639
00:27:05,799 --> 00:27:04,070
by use goto meeting all the time to

640
00:27:08,380 --> 00:27:05,809
collaborate with colleagues and with

641
00:27:11,769 --> 00:27:08,390
clients you can try goto meeting free

642
00:27:14,919 --> 00:27:11,779
for 30 days but you must visit goto

643
00:27:18,580 --> 00:27:14,929
meeting / podcasts let's go to

644
00:27:32,409 --> 00:27:18,590
meeting.com slash podcasts for free

645
00:27:34,630 --> 00:27:32,419
30-day trial next confirm it's our

646
00:27:36,700 --> 00:27:34,640
co-host he's author of contactees a

647
00:27:39,610 --> 00:27:36,710
history of alien human interaction we

648
00:27:41,260 --> 00:27:39,620
have Jim Mosely editor of saucer smear

649
00:27:44,019 --> 00:27:41,270
will hear more about saucer smears

650
00:27:46,659 --> 00:27:44,029
shortly Jim you had a comment is not at

651
00:27:48,730 --> 00:27:46,669
all well known and probably at this

652
00:27:51,580 --> 00:27:48,740
point in time of very little importance

653
00:27:55,269 --> 00:27:51,590
but I lived in the New York City area

654
00:27:57,970 --> 00:27:55,279
and I was a member of CSI which was one

655
00:28:01,840 --> 00:27:57,980
of the very first civilian saucer

656
00:28:05,860 --> 00:28:01,850
research groups for flying saucers this

657
00:28:09,039 --> 00:28:05,870
would be 1953 or 1954 there was a fellow

658
00:28:12,159 --> 00:28:09,049
a very nice guy that I got to know quite

659
00:28:15,250 --> 00:28:12,169
well his name was Charles fanless and he

660
00:28:18,010 --> 00:28:15,260
had been in World War two I believe in

661
00:28:21,070 --> 00:28:18,020
the OSI which was the predecessor of the

662
00:28:23,710 --> 00:28:21,080
CIA and he told me that he had been

663
00:28:27,460 --> 00:28:23,720
asked by whatever people in the

664
00:28:30,490 --> 00:28:27,470
government to join as CSI he was

665
00:28:32,919 --> 00:28:30,500
interested actually in saucers anyway it

666
00:28:34,930 --> 00:28:32,929
wasn't just all put on it was a subject

667
00:28:38,110 --> 00:28:34,940
that he wanted to

668
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:38,120
or about but he was asked to keep an eye

669
00:28:45,190 --> 00:28:41,210
out in the air open there to anything

670
00:28:48,210 --> 00:28:45,200
that might indicate outside influences

671
00:28:51,730 --> 00:28:48,220
of communism method that had ever been

672
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:51,740
such statements from CSI CSI was a

673
00:28:56,890 --> 00:28:54,890
research group not a contact II group I

674
00:28:59,410 --> 00:28:56,900
should point out Jim before people going

675
00:29:02,530 --> 00:28:59,420
to confuse we have TV shows today called

676
00:29:04,390 --> 00:29:02,540
CSI including a CSI in New York where

677
00:29:07,450 --> 00:29:04,400
that's a crime scene investigation

678
00:29:09,220 --> 00:29:07,460
the CSI of the 1950's was a UFO research

679
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:09,230
organization a very good one by the way

680
00:29:14,530 --> 00:29:11,570
yeah well it's interesting tool you're

681
00:29:17,830 --> 00:29:14,540
talking about possible confusion there

682
00:29:21,730 --> 00:29:17,840
was CSI of New York and at just about

683
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:21,740
the same time there was a CSI probably

684
00:29:26,380 --> 00:29:24,170
with the initial standing for the same

685
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:26,390
words and that was in Southern

686
00:29:32,260 --> 00:29:29,930
California composed of so million years

687
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:32,270
and I don't remember the details but

688
00:29:38,830 --> 00:29:35,650
there were two groups was apparently a

689
00:29:40,420 --> 00:29:38,840
identical name and at the same time you

690
00:29:44,350 --> 00:29:40,430
know Jim when you talk about government

691
00:29:46,300 --> 00:29:44,360
intervention in possibly these contexts

692
00:29:48,940 --> 00:29:46,310
of course we were talking about Russian

693
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:48,950
intervention but do you remember the

694
00:29:53,860 --> 00:29:51,170
lunch the strange lunch meeting we had

695
00:29:55,930 --> 00:29:53,870
with Howard manager back in the 1960s

696
00:29:58,960 --> 00:29:55,940
and remember Howard manager was not a

697
00:30:01,330 --> 00:29:58,970
friend of your publication you know you

698
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:01,340
kind of put him in the same category as

699
00:30:05,140 --> 00:30:03,650
a damn ski just one of those Kooks but

700
00:30:09,700 --> 00:30:05,150
then we had this crazy lunch do you

701
00:30:13,180 --> 00:30:09,710
recall this sure is saying that perhaps

702
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:13,190
and we have this lunch place we'd get

703
00:30:22,060 --> 00:30:15,890
together across from your offices in New

704
00:30:24,070 --> 00:30:22,070
York City have a diner manager there at

705
00:30:26,590 --> 00:30:24,080
one time and he was telling us that he

706
00:30:33,610 --> 00:30:26,600
thought he was part of a government

707
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:33,620
experiment our government doesn't

708
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:35,810
believe me it's not problem but

709
00:30:41,110 --> 00:30:38,210
following up from there when Long John

710
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:41,120
Neville finally got his television show

711
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:43,730
which was sometime I suppose in the late

712
00:30:48,510 --> 00:30:46,090
fifties and he only had it for

713
00:30:51,419 --> 00:30:48,520
season leases apparently it didn't go

714
00:30:54,570 --> 00:30:51,429
over very well but he had Howard ninja

715
00:30:57,269 --> 00:30:54,580
on the TV show because Howard had been

716
00:31:00,720 --> 00:30:57,279
on the radio show many many times and he

717
00:31:04,169 --> 00:31:00,730
was probably let's say a favorite son or

718
00:31:06,930 --> 00:31:04,179
a sacred cow long johns and he got him

719
00:31:09,570 --> 00:31:06,940
on the TV show which I did not hear and

720
00:31:11,250 --> 00:31:09,580
he started saying the same kind of thing

721
00:31:14,130 --> 00:31:11,260
that you're talking about that it was

722
00:31:18,289 --> 00:31:14,140
not interplanetary but he was set up by

723
00:31:21,419 --> 00:31:18,299
some government agency and longevity

724
00:31:23,610 --> 00:31:21,429
even for that and I think I wish I

725
00:31:26,070 --> 00:31:23,620
couldn't read the show or been there

726
00:31:29,519 --> 00:31:26,080
when it was taped because that must have

727
00:31:32,430 --> 00:31:29,529
been a very amusing scene I'm sure John

728
00:31:35,190 --> 00:31:32,440
was ready to strangle a manager with his

729
00:31:38,130 --> 00:31:35,200
bare hands John had this technique of

730
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:38,140
the slow burn now ladies and gentlemen

731
00:31:43,500 --> 00:31:39,490
you probably don't know long John

732
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:43,510
Neville was the pioneer of the all-night

733
00:31:47,639 --> 00:31:46,090
talk radio format with an emphasis on

734
00:31:50,159 --> 00:31:47,649
the paranormal before there was an art

735
00:31:53,399 --> 00:31:50,169
Belle George Noory any of us that was

736
00:31:56,279 --> 00:31:53,409
Long John Neville and I actually saw the

737
00:31:58,950 --> 00:31:56,289
TV show in question okay I recall the

738
00:32:01,289 --> 00:31:58,960
slow burn you know he didn't stay on the

739
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:01,299
air because he was a professional what

740
00:32:04,799 --> 00:32:03,010
he really felt if he did there would be

741
00:32:06,930 --> 00:32:04,809
words that would be uttered that you

742
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:06,940
didn't want to hear on TV especially in

743
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:10,570
the 1950s and 60s yeah well it was also

744
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:16,330
interesting the menu was always very

745
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:18,730
friendly with me and and this meeting

746
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:21,730
that we had at that restaurant must have

747
00:32:26,940 --> 00:32:23,610
been sometime around the time of the

748
00:32:30,090 --> 00:32:26,950
1967 convention that I held when the

749
00:32:33,269 --> 00:32:30,100
vendor was one of the main speakers and

750
00:32:36,769 --> 00:32:33,279
from that point on he and I became good

751
00:32:39,090 --> 00:32:36,779
friends I had let him live free and a

752
00:32:40,889 --> 00:32:39,100
apartment that I had in New York for a

753
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:40,899
period of a week or two that he was in

754
00:32:46,980 --> 00:32:44,170
New York so that must have started off

755
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:46,990
on the right foot and after what we kept

756
00:32:51,450 --> 00:32:48,730
in touch it I met him several other

757
00:32:53,370 --> 00:32:51,460
times and he was just as nice as he

758
00:32:55,830 --> 00:32:53,380
could be in spite of the fact that he

759
00:32:58,560 --> 00:32:55,840
knew perfectly well but I didn't believe

760
00:33:02,100 --> 00:32:58,570
his story and I had knocked him in print

761
00:33:04,710 --> 00:33:02,110
several times in saucer news as it was

762
00:33:07,710 --> 00:33:04,720
called then and I always wondered was he

763
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:07,720
a very tolerant fellow to that degree or

764
00:33:14,940 --> 00:33:11,650
or what was it but we remained in touch

765
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:14,950
for the rest of his life and I'm no

766
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:17,050
longer in touch with his little but that

767
00:33:23,370 --> 00:33:20,770
was a long time ago and a very unusual

768
00:33:25,260 --> 00:33:23,380
friendship what was your take about what

769
00:33:27,180 --> 00:33:25,270
he was saying was that some kind of spin

770
00:33:28,650 --> 00:33:27,190
control knowing that you didn't believe

771
00:33:30,780 --> 00:33:28,660
him what he said so he might as well

772
00:33:32,460 --> 00:33:30,790
give you a version that would be more in

773
00:33:34,980 --> 00:33:32,470
line with what you wanted to hear well

774
00:33:38,220 --> 00:33:34,990
no I mean if he said the same thing I'm

775
00:33:41,130 --> 00:33:38,230
long johns television show but you say

776
00:33:44,100 --> 00:33:41,140
he said to me at that restaurant I guess

777
00:33:47,210 --> 00:33:44,110
it was a new angle that he had to

778
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:47,220
present to everybody not just to me yeah

779
00:33:52,500 --> 00:33:49,930
I would sort of follow up on that is

780
00:33:55,050 --> 00:33:52,510
that if you look into the contactee

781
00:33:57,510 --> 00:33:55,060
movement you do find a number of these

782
00:33:59,520 --> 00:33:57,520
people who did have I guess quote

783
00:34:02,010 --> 00:33:59,530
intriguing links with the official world

784
00:34:04,710 --> 00:34:02,020
I mean George Van Tassel for example who

785
00:34:06,540 --> 00:34:04,720
was responsible for the huge conferences

786
00:34:08,310 --> 00:34:06,550
out of giant rock which you know they're

787
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:08,320
high retracting literally thousands of

788
00:34:12,450 --> 00:34:10,690
people in the audience's George Van

789
00:34:14,399 --> 00:34:12,460
Tassel used to work for Hughes Aircraft

790
00:34:16,110 --> 00:34:14,409
under Howard Hughes and Howard Hughes

791
00:34:19,020 --> 00:34:16,120
was somebody obviously who worked and

792
00:34:20,340 --> 00:34:19,030
moved in very high circles and there's

793
00:34:24,030 --> 00:34:20,350
actually been books written about his

794
00:34:26,130 --> 00:34:24,040
links to the CIA and how he was actually

795
00:34:28,409 --> 00:34:26,140
good friends with George Van Tassel and

796
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:28,419
his wife not only that when I got hold

797
00:34:35,610 --> 00:34:31,570
of Van Tassel's FBI file it actually

798
00:34:37,139 --> 00:34:35,620
talked about how in the 1940s when Van

799
00:34:40,409 --> 00:34:37,149
Tassel was working at Hughes Aircraft

800
00:34:43,710 --> 00:34:40,419
he'd actually helped the FBI on a number

801
00:34:46,230 --> 00:34:43,720
of espionage cases where foreign agents

802
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:46,240
were trying to infiltrate Hughes

803
00:34:50,310 --> 00:34:47,890
Aircraft to find out you know the latest

804
00:34:52,919 --> 00:34:50,320
information on American aircraft designs

805
00:34:54,010 --> 00:34:52,929
and there was an FBI agent named Walter

806
00:34:56,230 --> 00:34:54,020
boss who

807
00:34:58,690 --> 00:34:56,240
it will worked on these investigations

808
00:35:00,880 --> 00:34:58,700
and and Van Tassel actually helped him

809
00:35:03,010 --> 00:35:00,890
on a number of these cases so in other

810
00:35:06,010 --> 00:35:03,020
words even before their UFO experiences

811
00:35:07,510 --> 00:35:06,020
they were moving in official circles and

812
00:35:09,850 --> 00:35:07,520
I know that when I was doing research

813
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:09,860
for the for the contactees book I found

814
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:12,530
that Leonard Stringfield an early

815
00:35:17,500 --> 00:35:15,050
research who in later life focused on

816
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:17,510
crashed UFO stories he'd met some of the

817
00:35:21,430 --> 00:35:19,370
contactees in the fifties and said there

818
00:35:24,010 --> 00:35:21,440
was talk about some of these people

819
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:24,020
being plants and things like that and

820
00:35:28,270 --> 00:35:26,090
and there's also this long-standing room

821
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:28,280
I'm sure you know about where George

822
00:35:31,780 --> 00:35:29,930
Adamski was supposed to have some sort

823
00:35:34,240 --> 00:35:31,790
of diplomatic passports now whether or

824
00:35:36,100 --> 00:35:34,250
not that was a damn ski you know trying

825
00:35:38,410 --> 00:35:36,110
to massage his own ego or not I don't

826
00:35:41,650 --> 00:35:38,420
know but you know for what we know from

827
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:41,660
other contactees they did moving these

828
00:35:46,660 --> 00:35:44,210
sort of interesting official well I I

829
00:35:49,420 --> 00:35:46,670
think the George a dancer you didn't

830
00:35:54,130 --> 00:35:49,430
need claimed the you had a meeting with

831
00:35:57,670 --> 00:35:54,140
the Pope and he had some means of trying

832
00:35:59,830 --> 00:35:57,680
to prove that he had some medallion or

833
00:36:02,050 --> 00:35:59,840
whatever that he claimed the Pope had

834
00:36:06,580 --> 00:36:02,060
given him but then it turned out that

835
00:36:10,270 --> 00:36:06,590
you could buy this dog and anywhere in

836
00:36:12,460 --> 00:36:10,280
in the Vatican area and that it didn't

837
00:36:14,710 --> 00:36:12,470
prove that he met the Pope at all do you

838
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:14,720
remember that yeah I think you know this

839
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:16,970
is all you know part of the the spin

840
00:36:21,190 --> 00:36:18,650
that a lot of the contact he's put on

841
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:21,200
their stories and I think again a lot of

842
00:36:25,990 --> 00:36:23,450
people just people don't realize the

843
00:36:28,060 --> 00:36:26,000
deep level to which it kind of goes you

844
00:36:30,790 --> 00:36:28,070
know it goes beyond hoaxing it almost

845
00:36:32,740 --> 00:36:30,800
goes to the point of doing what needs to

846
00:36:34,990 --> 00:36:32,750
be done to get what they saw as a viable

847
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:35,000
message across and you know I think

848
00:36:39,150 --> 00:36:37,610
that's been missed or misinterpreted at

849
00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:39,160
least the one thing I always

850
00:36:43,860 --> 00:36:42,250
about here guys is whether or not some

851
00:36:46,950 --> 00:36:43,870
of these contactees were government

852
00:36:49,650 --> 00:36:46,960
plants in other words trying to either

853
00:36:53,100 --> 00:36:49,660
prepare us or just to test the waters

854
00:36:54,870 --> 00:36:53,110
and see how would people react if the

855
00:36:56,430 --> 00:36:54,880
aliens came to visit us and this all

856
00:36:58,440 --> 00:36:56,440
came in the wake of the movie The Day

857
00:37:01,380 --> 00:36:58,450
the Earth Stood Still Michael Rennie

858
00:37:04,170 --> 00:37:01,390
plays this character Klaatu who comes to

859
00:37:06,420 --> 00:37:04,180
earth to warn us about our nuclear folly

860
00:37:09,690 --> 00:37:06,430
we're destroying the planet if you don't

861
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:09,700
straighten out will destroy you so the

862
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:11,770
same message was being conveyed was the

863
00:37:17,820 --> 00:37:13,330
government doing some sort of test

864
00:37:20,310 --> 00:37:17,830
once again actually Gina I don't think

865
00:37:23,550 --> 00:37:20,320
that could be right I mean I didn't know

866
00:37:25,890 --> 00:37:23,560
any of the contactees all that well but

867
00:37:30,540 --> 00:37:25,900
they didn't seem to be in a league with

868
00:37:32,460 --> 00:37:30,550
any government plan to put out this one

869
00:37:34,980 --> 00:37:32,470
kind of propaganda or anything like that

870
00:37:37,170 --> 00:37:34,990
Nick yeah I would kind of agree with

871
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:37,180
that I think he know that the I think

872
00:37:42,570 --> 00:37:39,610
the contactees some of them were being

873
00:37:45,090 --> 00:37:42,580
used by extremist groups by left-wing

874
00:37:47,580 --> 00:37:45,100
groups ultra left-wing groups I mean you

875
00:37:49,470 --> 00:37:47,590
saw or worked for a while at least and I

876
00:37:51,240 --> 00:37:49,480
think there's no tour there's no doubt

877
00:37:53,660 --> 00:37:51,250
that some of them did have links with

878
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:53,670
the official world like Van Tassel now

879
00:37:59,040 --> 00:37:57,010
whether or not they were being used I

880
00:38:00,810 --> 00:37:59,050
think if they were being used as part of

881
00:38:01,950 --> 00:38:00,820
some message I think it's probably

882
00:38:04,710 --> 00:38:01,960
unwittingly

883
00:38:06,510 --> 00:38:04,720
I think if you look at some of them they

884
00:38:08,550 --> 00:38:06,520
weren't the most reliable of people to

885
00:38:10,050 --> 00:38:08,560
where they might spill the beans so to

886
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:10,060
speak you know because it would be an

887
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:12,490
even greater story you know if they I

888
00:38:18,270 --> 00:38:14,410
think that's a very good point I don't

889
00:38:21,720 --> 00:38:18,280
think anyone any official agency would

890
00:38:24,540 --> 00:38:21,730
trust these people to call instructions

891
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:24,550
and whether or not they may have been

892
00:38:29,010 --> 00:38:26,650
unwittingly used I think that's a

893
00:38:31,740 --> 00:38:29,020
possibility but I talk about in the book

894
00:38:34,410 --> 00:38:31,750
was the case of all Theo Angelo Chi now

895
00:38:37,140 --> 00:38:34,420
Angela she had these again classic

896
00:38:38,630 --> 00:38:37,150
contact experiences where you know he

897
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:38,640
said his life was pretty much

898
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:41,170
transformed overnight from this sickly

899
00:38:46,140 --> 00:38:44,050
sort of timid person with not much self

900
00:38:48,270 --> 00:38:46,150
esteem to somebody writing books and

901
00:38:50,630 --> 00:38:48,280
going on the lecture circuit but in one

902
00:38:53,660 --> 00:38:50,640
of his books he talks about meeting

903
00:38:56,140 --> 00:38:53,670
who he claimed was named Adam who met in

904
00:38:58,849 --> 00:38:56,150
a restaurant and wanted to talk about

905
00:39:00,470 --> 00:38:58,859
Angela's UFO experiences and Adam was

906
00:39:03,589 --> 00:39:00,480
kind of a mysterious character who'd

907
00:39:06,620 --> 00:39:03,599
supposedly met aliens as well but in

908
00:39:09,319 --> 00:39:06,630
this restaurant scenario Adam asks

909
00:39:11,029 --> 00:39:09,329
Angela Lee to take this pill take a

910
00:39:12,470 --> 00:39:11,039
small pill with a glass of water which

911
00:39:14,450 --> 00:39:12,480
he does which probably isn't the best

912
00:39:15,799 --> 00:39:14,460
thing to do you know some stranger gives

913
00:39:17,690 --> 00:39:15,809
you a pill and says take this but

914
00:39:19,549 --> 00:39:17,700
nevertheless that's what Angela Lee

915
00:39:21,589 --> 00:39:19,559
claimed he did and what happened was

916
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:21,599
that for thirty minutes or so absolutely

917
00:39:26,809 --> 00:39:24,210
nothing happened but after that Angela

918
00:39:29,329 --> 00:39:26,819
Chi started reporting how the room

919
00:39:31,579 --> 00:39:29,339
seemed to change in the diner where they

920
00:39:33,620 --> 00:39:31,589
were where they were sitting and that he

921
00:39:36,170 --> 00:39:33,630
said that the colors in the room seemed

922
00:39:38,450 --> 00:39:36,180
to take on new meaning and he saw like a

923
00:39:40,460 --> 00:39:38,460
little dancing figure on the table and

924
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:40,470
if you read it it sounds like he'd been

925
00:39:46,910 --> 00:39:45,690
dosed with LSD on the table right next

926
00:39:49,009 --> 00:39:46,920
to where they were sat there were two

927
00:39:51,079 --> 00:39:49,019
guys in military uniforms watching them

928
00:39:53,240 --> 00:39:51,089
very closely if you bear in mind the

929
00:39:54,910 --> 00:39:53,250
time frame this is when people like the

930
00:39:58,039 --> 00:39:54,920
CIA were doing their early

931
00:39:59,960 --> 00:39:58,049
MKULTRA LSD research and I actually

932
00:40:02,690 --> 00:39:59,970
think if you read that in retrospect now

933
00:40:05,870 --> 00:40:02,700
it comes across like somebody dosing up

934
00:40:08,470 --> 00:40:05,880
Angela with LSD and pumping him for

935
00:40:11,839 --> 00:40:08,480
information on his UFO experiences or

936
00:40:13,730 --> 00:40:11,849
trying to encourage more UFO experiences

937
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:13,740
and to where Angela Chi would have even

938
00:40:17,420 --> 00:40:15,930
more to talk about so I think if the

939
00:40:19,519 --> 00:40:17,430
government was involved and I think in

940
00:40:21,529 --> 00:40:19,529
this case there's a possibility these

941
00:40:24,470 --> 00:40:21,539
people were being used unwittingly not

942
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:24,480
as as witching players you know I I'm

943
00:40:30,019 --> 00:40:27,690
editor or vo anchor Lucy at least two or

944
00:40:33,980 --> 00:40:30,029
three times probably out out of giant

945
00:40:37,220 --> 00:40:33,990
rocks there was a fellow who is long

946
00:40:39,589 --> 00:40:37,230
gone and forgotten and now but he was

947
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:39,599
not a contact II but he was a friend of

948
00:40:45,829 --> 00:40:43,170
some of them and his name was max Miller

949
00:40:48,049 --> 00:40:45,839
do you know that name yeah he was like a

950
00:40:50,269 --> 00:40:48,059
young guy who put on UFO conferences was

951
00:40:53,150 --> 00:40:50,279
noon yeah that's right these people are

952
00:40:56,599 --> 00:40:53,160
on the first endure the UFO conference

953
00:41:00,100 --> 00:40:56,609
in either 1952 or 53 at which time he

954
00:41:02,770 --> 00:41:00,110
was only about 13 years old it's amazing

955
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:02,780
he had some kind of a congenital heart

956
00:41:09,190 --> 00:41:06,130
disease and died young but in the

957
00:41:10,990 --> 00:41:09,200
fifties and I guess up into the early

958
00:41:14,500 --> 00:41:11,000
60s he was quite active

959
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:14,510
he was quite friendly with Otto Angelou

960
00:41:19,180 --> 00:41:17,090
see just making a lost very short from

961
00:41:22,330 --> 00:41:19,190
reading the first book by Orfeo I

962
00:41:25,390 --> 00:41:22,340
thought he would be in real life of

963
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:25,400
various theory sort of nervous guy of

964
00:41:33,310 --> 00:41:29,930
very far out perhaps and gentleman and

965
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:33,320
so on and when I met him he was of

966
00:41:40,270 --> 00:41:36,770
Italian extraction and looked at and

967
00:41:42,460 --> 00:41:40,280
acted it and he was quite genial and in

968
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:42,470
that sense very normal and he was a big

969
00:41:46,270 --> 00:41:43,130
drinker

970
00:41:48,430 --> 00:41:46,280
and we went out a couple of times and he

971
00:41:50,230 --> 00:41:48,440
got drunk and told all kinds of

972
00:41:52,780 --> 00:41:50,240
interesting things which is another long

973
00:41:55,060 --> 00:41:52,790
story but he was totally different in

974
00:41:56,710 --> 00:41:55,070
person than one would have thought for

975
00:41:58,570 --> 00:41:56,720
meeting his book did you get the

976
00:42:01,180 --> 00:41:58,580
impression Jim in knowing him and going

977
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:01,190
out and having more than a few beers

978
00:42:05,350 --> 00:42:03,650
with him that he believed were

979
00:42:11,290 --> 00:42:05,360
disbelieve what he claimed to have

980
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:11,300
happened to him well we really talked

981
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:15,170
about it all I could tell you a story

982
00:42:19,210 --> 00:42:18,410
that Orfeo the total accident me at one

983
00:42:21,490 --> 00:42:19,220
of our meetings

984
00:42:24,610 --> 00:42:21,500
max told me at a time I'm going to try

985
00:42:27,580 --> 00:42:24,620
to get Orfeo to tell the story about the

986
00:42:31,720 --> 00:42:27,590
sheep and I knew what he meant by that

987
00:42:34,780 --> 00:42:31,730
and I would be very interesting so when

988
00:42:37,660 --> 00:42:34,790
we got there and a max didn't drink I

989
00:42:41,830 --> 00:42:37,670
drank a bit as I still do and so there

990
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:41,840
are Theo and the evening wore Max kept

991
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:44,690
urging me or Pio to tell the story about

992
00:42:51,490 --> 00:42:47,810
the sheet and the story about the sheep

993
00:42:54,010 --> 00:42:51,500
was quite interesting when Theo I lived

994
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:54,020
I guess back east before he moved out to

995
00:42:59,650 --> 00:42:56,090
California this must have been a quite

996
00:43:03,490 --> 00:42:59,660
an unusually rough but he and some

997
00:43:05,900 --> 00:43:03,500
friends were drunk on an evening and go

998
00:43:08,809 --> 00:43:05,910
down to the sheep and and

999
00:43:12,319 --> 00:43:08,819
have their way with the sheep but that's

1000
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:12,329
not the punchline he as he told us he

1001
00:43:18,950 --> 00:43:15,410
said well you know I always made sure

1002
00:43:25,700 --> 00:43:18,960
that I got a female sheep and some of

1003
00:43:28,279 --> 00:43:25,710
those guys would screw anything it would

1004
00:43:31,940 --> 00:43:28,289
seem yes that that must have been quite

1005
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:31,950
a lively group but that is something

1006
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:34,530
that I wouldn't make up on the core man

1007
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:37,530
he's long dead I believe that is when he

1008
00:43:46,790 --> 00:43:39,690
finally told us that's the story of the

1009
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:49,130
[Music]

1010
00:43:54,020 --> 00:43:51,930
fate magazine provides true reports of

1011
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:54,030
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1012
00:43:59,750 --> 00:43:56,610
latest on angels and miracles psychic

1013
00:44:00,860 --> 00:43:59,760
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00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:00,870
and much much more

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1019
00:44:26,030 --> 00:44:17,400
one eight hundred seven two eight twenty

1020
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:26,040
seven thirty or WWF AEMA g calm what are

1021
00:44:30,890 --> 00:44:40,120
[Music]

1022
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:43,310
this is the story of the power caste we

1023
00:44:48,830 --> 00:44:46,410
have Jim Mosely editor of saucer smear

1024
00:44:50,810 --> 00:44:48,840
our co-host Nick Redfern author of

1025
00:44:53,420 --> 00:44:50,820
contact a history of alien human

1026
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:53,430
interaction or maybe not Paley annually

1027
00:44:58,370 --> 00:44:55,370
maybe just human to human interaction

1028
00:45:00,500 --> 00:44:58,380
you know maybe we don't know you know

1029
00:45:03,050 --> 00:45:00,510
Jim over the years you sponsored

1030
00:45:04,910 --> 00:45:03,060
lectures in the New York area and a

1031
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:04,920
couple of times you featured dr. Frank

1032
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:07,530
strangers who recently departed and

1033
00:45:13,190 --> 00:45:10,290
recently departed this world and he had

1034
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:13,200
his own encounter with this alleged

1035
00:45:17,900 --> 00:45:16,290
alien person we what was your feeling

1036
00:45:23,450 --> 00:45:17,910
about him do you think he was up to

1037
00:45:25,910 --> 00:45:23,460
something what dr. Strange's was really

1038
00:45:29,240 --> 00:45:25,920
fast the most interesting and colorful

1039
00:45:33,110 --> 00:45:29,250
of all of these contactees that I met

1040
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:33,120
and over the years I got to know I'm not

1041
00:45:38,270 --> 00:45:35,370
fairly well although we met at a number

1042
00:45:41,270 --> 00:45:38,280
of East Coast conventions and I guess I

1043
00:45:44,510 --> 00:45:41,280
first met him out in giant rock I

1044
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:44,520
believe as early as 1957 he was showing

1045
00:45:51,110 --> 00:45:47,610
some documentary that he had put

1046
00:45:55,220 --> 00:45:51,120
together on the subject of flying saucer

1047
00:45:57,950 --> 00:45:55,230
well his most popular book which I guess

1048
00:45:59,870 --> 00:45:57,960
me so quite a number of copies and

1049
00:46:02,870 --> 00:45:59,880
possibly made a great deal of money for

1050
00:46:06,380 --> 00:46:02,880
was the stranger at the Pentagon and

1051
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:06,390
that's the story of wealth or a spaceman

1052
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:09,090
who among other things went to the

1053
00:46:14,090 --> 00:46:11,370
Pentagon and interviewed people and so

1054
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:14,100
on actually I never read the book so I

1055
00:46:19,310 --> 00:46:16,770
can't really tell you a great deal about

1056
00:46:23,090 --> 00:46:19,320
it but the bell--the or the whole thing

1057
00:46:26,630 --> 00:46:23,100
sounded so ridiculously science fiction

1058
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:26,640
ish because wealth or vowel is of course

1059
00:46:32,900 --> 00:46:30,450
a short for valiant and so r is for what

1060
00:46:35,510 --> 00:46:32,910
is it the Norse god of war or something

1061
00:46:37,140 --> 00:46:35,520
I don't know if it's nor sore German our

1062
00:46:40,589 --> 00:46:37,150
wives

1063
00:46:45,450 --> 00:46:40,599
or is a very powerful God so you know

1064
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:45,460
some Sauron in faded mythology so there

1065
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:48,970
I mean would you really expect a space

1066
00:46:54,539 --> 00:46:51,970
person from a distant planet to come

1067
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:54,549
here and call himself Bell Thor I mean

1068
00:47:00,990 --> 00:46:57,010
just starting from that point I I didn't

1069
00:47:03,779 --> 00:47:01,000
really believe the story but strangers

1070
00:47:06,240 --> 00:47:03,789
was a very complex and very interesting

1071
00:47:09,210 --> 00:47:06,250
guy he he had a lot of things going for

1072
00:47:11,779 --> 00:47:09,220
him for one thing he had some kind of a

1073
00:47:14,250 --> 00:47:11,789
pseudo degree whereby he was a

1074
00:47:17,910 --> 00:47:14,260
immigration expert people don't know

1075
00:47:20,549 --> 00:47:17,920
that about and for quite a large fee he

1076
00:47:23,010 --> 00:47:20,559
would help immigrants get their papers

1077
00:47:25,049 --> 00:47:23,020
together so that they look good stay in

1078
00:47:27,450 --> 00:47:25,059
the United States this is many years ago

1079
00:47:29,549 --> 00:47:27,460
I suppose not the immigration crisis

1080
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:29,559
that we are right now but that's just

1081
00:47:35,940 --> 00:47:31,690
one of the other hats that he wore he

1082
00:47:38,819 --> 00:47:35,950
was a in a fraternal order of police as

1083
00:47:40,769 --> 00:47:38,829
some kind of an interstate saying he was

1084
00:47:45,269 --> 00:47:40,779
quite a character as saucers were not

1085
00:47:49,589 --> 00:47:45,279
his only thing but as a core point he

1086
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:49,599
was supposedly a biblical scholar as for

1087
00:47:54,089 --> 00:47:51,490
where he came from the NAG estate he was

1088
00:47:56,190 --> 00:47:54,099
also an expert supposedly on the Dead

1089
00:47:59,039 --> 00:47:56,200
Sea Scrolls I think he wrote at least

1090
00:48:01,920 --> 00:47:59,049
one book about that so he was a man of

1091
00:48:04,529 --> 00:48:01,930
many healers very interesting in his

1092
00:48:07,529 --> 00:48:04,539
last year's and he came extremely funny

1093
00:48:11,579 --> 00:48:07,539
with me he was trying to raise money to

1094
00:48:13,980 --> 00:48:11,589
make a movie out of stranger at the

1095
00:48:16,230 --> 00:48:13,990
Pentagon and I know that he never

1096
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:16,240
succeeded in doing that but he was still

1097
00:48:20,039 --> 00:48:18,010
working on that project at the time of

1098
00:48:23,250 --> 00:48:20,049
his death which was all two or three

1099
00:48:25,319 --> 00:48:23,260
years ago I would say and he likes smear

1100
00:48:28,109 --> 00:48:25,329
although smear never endorsed and he

1101
00:48:31,410 --> 00:48:28,119
says quite a large donation every year

1102
00:48:33,769 --> 00:48:31,420
it was interesting actually I guess it's

1103
00:48:37,019 --> 00:48:33,779
his president miked up some of these

1104
00:48:38,670 --> 00:48:37,029
contactees likes me even though they

1105
00:48:41,220 --> 00:48:38,680
knew I didn't believe a word they were

1106
00:48:43,049 --> 00:48:41,230
saying I can't really explain that did

1107
00:48:44,359 --> 00:48:43,059
you know any of the other contactees Jim

1108
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:44,369
well

1109
00:48:51,620 --> 00:48:48,210
all the other one that I knew personally

1110
00:48:54,579 --> 00:48:51,630
beside strangers and Orfeo were was a

1111
00:49:00,289 --> 00:48:54,589
dance key when a dance he was in his

1112
00:49:02,839 --> 00:49:00,299
classic period he was living in a place

1113
00:49:05,299 --> 00:49:02,849
called Palomar Gardens and there's been

1114
00:49:07,099 --> 00:49:05,309
a lot of dispute about this people say

1115
00:49:09,470 --> 00:49:07,109
it was a hamburgers or anything was

1116
00:49:11,509 --> 00:49:09,480
working there well it wasn't exactly a

1117
00:49:13,220 --> 00:49:11,519
hamburger churning and he wasn't working

1118
00:49:16,130 --> 00:49:13,230
there I think he was just free-balling

1119
00:49:18,049 --> 00:49:16,140
because he was a friend of the owner and

1120
00:49:20,210 --> 00:49:18,059
this was a little place that did serve

1121
00:49:23,359 --> 00:49:20,220
indeed hamburgers and such and light

1122
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:23,369
meals and it was at the beginning of a

1123
00:49:29,690 --> 00:49:26,970
long winding road that went up to Mount

1124
00:49:33,950 --> 00:49:29,700
Palomar Observatory since he called

1125
00:49:36,529 --> 00:49:33,960
himself a professor danske giving the

1126
00:49:39,049 --> 00:49:36,539
impression that he had some kind of a

1127
00:49:42,529 --> 00:49:39,059
degree which he certainly did the real

1128
00:49:44,210 --> 00:49:42,539
scientists at Mount Palomar was were

1129
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:44,220
very upset about this because people

1130
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:47,249
would confuse the situation and think

1131
00:49:51,950 --> 00:49:50,130
that ASCII had so connection with the

1132
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:51,960
observatory which he certainly did not

1133
00:49:59,239 --> 00:49:54,650
and I spent a whole afternoon

1134
00:50:01,609 --> 00:49:59,249
interviewing a danske at Palomar gardens

1135
00:50:03,799 --> 00:50:01,619
and even that day or the next hour I

1136
00:50:06,170 --> 00:50:03,809
went up to the top of the mountain and

1137
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:06,180
interview the people at the observatory

1138
00:50:12,349 --> 00:50:09,930
as I say there was not much love lost

1139
00:50:15,529 --> 00:50:12,359
between these two groups it was rather

1140
00:50:17,359 --> 00:50:15,539
than unity Nick Redfern the various

1141
00:50:21,769 --> 00:50:17,369
contact deeds did any of them have a

1142
00:50:23,870 --> 00:50:21,779
meaningful job prior to becoming famous

1143
00:50:26,089 --> 00:50:23,880
for their alleged contacts well

1144
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:26,099
certainly Van Tassel did I mean he had a

1145
00:50:30,049 --> 00:50:28,650
very good job at it Hughes Aircraft you

1146
00:50:33,109 --> 00:50:30,059
know that that's a fact

1147
00:50:35,329 --> 00:50:33,119
I mean but he basically quit his job

1148
00:50:37,190 --> 00:50:35,339
moved out to giant rock and lived in the

1149
00:50:39,829 --> 00:50:37,200
cave and underground with his fancy

1150
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:39,839
support himself with contributions well

1151
00:50:43,519 --> 00:50:41,130
I think you know like a lot of these

1152
00:50:46,609 --> 00:50:43,529
guys contributions sort of menial work

1153
00:50:49,609 --> 00:50:46,619
at the band's hassle you know he helps

1154
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:49,619
maintain this Bastrop area giant rock

1155
00:50:53,029 --> 00:50:50,970
and I think got some funding through

1156
00:50:55,489 --> 00:50:53,039
that you know Adamski

1157
00:50:56,210 --> 00:50:55,499
had his place on Palomar as Jim just

1158
00:50:58,069 --> 00:50:56,220
spoke about

1159
00:51:00,290 --> 00:50:58,079
and when on the lecture circuit road

1160
00:51:03,410 --> 00:51:00,300
books you know and I think like a lot of

1161
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:03,420
us who do what we do you know you you

1162
00:51:07,370 --> 00:51:05,490
scrape believe it through like you did

1163
00:51:10,250 --> 00:51:07,380
one or one of those brings the the

1164
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:10,260
Georgia dance he had done before he

1165
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:12,210
officially got into the sulphur field

1166
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:15,690
and I don't know how far back this would

1167
00:51:20,089 --> 00:51:18,210
go and I don't remember okay and how do

1168
00:51:24,380 --> 00:51:20,099
I know it but I read it in more than one

1169
00:51:26,660 --> 00:51:24,390
place he during Prohibition which lasted

1170
00:51:29,930 --> 00:51:26,670
longer some parts of the country than

1171
00:51:33,140 --> 00:51:29,940
others he had some kind of a let's say

1172
00:51:36,410 --> 00:51:33,150
funny Church that he was running and as

1173
00:51:39,190 --> 00:51:36,420
part of the sacrament that was wine so

1174
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:39,200
what he did using that as an excuse he

1175
00:51:45,260 --> 00:51:41,970
manufactured best qualities of the wine

1176
00:51:48,770 --> 00:51:45,270
and distributed it in in violation of

1177
00:51:51,050 --> 00:51:48,780
the prohibition situation and that's in

1178
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:51,060
other words he was a bootlegger in other

1179
00:51:57,800 --> 00:51:53,970
words he was about like yes that was one

1180
00:52:00,380 --> 00:51:57,810
of this earlier professions before he

1181
00:52:02,720 --> 00:52:00,390
got into any of this esoteric stuff and

1182
00:52:05,500 --> 00:52:02,730
I find that quite interesting and indeed

1183
00:52:08,870 --> 00:52:05,510
amusing also did any of these people

1184
00:52:10,940 --> 00:52:08,880
Nick or Jim have a lot of money before

1185
00:52:14,150 --> 00:52:10,950
they got involved in the contact D

1186
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:14,160
movement no no I would agree I think a

1187
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:16,410
lot of them were just people who some of

1188
00:52:19,819 --> 00:52:18,210
them I think were you know just hoaxes

1189
00:52:22,069 --> 00:52:19,829
and who likes dancing people like book

1190
00:52:24,650 --> 00:52:22,079
Elson you know and he's done Bucky who

1191
00:52:26,270 --> 00:52:24,660
stories like that but some of them you

1192
00:52:28,460 --> 00:52:26,280
know they didn't have much money before

1193
00:52:31,490 --> 00:52:28,470
and maybe they didn't even need much

1194
00:52:33,170 --> 00:52:31,500
money they you know they got by because

1195
00:52:35,109 --> 00:52:33,180
a lot of them you know I think we're

1196
00:52:36,910 --> 00:52:35,119
kind of attracted to alternative

1197
00:52:39,770 --> 00:52:36,920
lifestyles you know like for example

1198
00:52:42,260 --> 00:52:39,780
Adamski years ago in the 30s at his

1199
00:52:44,720 --> 00:52:42,270
royal order of Tibet so in other words

1200
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:44,730
you know I think it didn't matter to a

1201
00:52:48,260 --> 00:52:46,170
lot of these people whether they had you

1202
00:52:50,210 --> 00:52:48,270
know two cars the swimming pool or

1203
00:52:52,220 --> 00:52:50,220
whatever you know they were kind of

1204
00:52:53,750 --> 00:52:52,230
happy like a lot of us are in this

1205
00:52:56,030 --> 00:52:53,760
subject you know getting by go to

1206
00:52:59,359 --> 00:52:56,040
conferences hanging out with friends and

1207
00:53:01,339 --> 00:52:59,369
doing research or whatever but they

1208
00:53:03,140 --> 00:53:01,349
didn't really feel a need to be a part

1209
00:53:05,329 --> 00:53:03,150
of sort of the mainstream world it

1210
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:05,339
wasn't a big deal to them I don't think

1211
00:53:07,910 --> 00:53:06,330
no I was

1212
00:53:10,130 --> 00:53:07,920
excuse me for interrupting now I just

1213
00:53:13,190 --> 00:53:10,140
got to say I don't think any of them

1214
00:53:17,210 --> 00:53:13,200
made any vast amount of money probably

1215
00:53:19,670 --> 00:53:17,220
the one that would have closer than any

1216
00:53:21,230 --> 00:53:19,680
of the others to making good money would

1217
00:53:23,090 --> 00:53:21,240
have been at a ski at least at the

1218
00:53:25,670 --> 00:53:23,100
beginning and I don't know if I continue

1219
00:53:27,740 --> 00:53:25,680
to the same extent for the rest of his

1220
00:53:30,530 --> 00:53:27,750
life I would rather think that he didn't

1221
00:53:32,930 --> 00:53:30,540
to which he did quite well for a while

1222
00:53:35,810 --> 00:53:32,940
and I think you're right most of them

1223
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:35,820
just were happy with the attention that

1224
00:53:41,030 --> 00:53:38,130
they got the ability to travel around

1225
00:53:43,700 --> 00:53:41,040
the country and free guard with friends

1226
00:53:45,890 --> 00:53:43,710
and followers saw them had little groups

1227
00:53:49,580 --> 00:53:45,900
and followers in different cities and

1228
00:53:52,220 --> 00:53:49,590
they go and give a special lecture to

1229
00:53:55,490 --> 00:53:52,230
each one is over going through that part

1230
00:53:58,790 --> 00:53:55,500
of the country and it would be a very

1231
00:54:01,100 --> 00:53:58,800
pleasant life and an opportunity for

1232
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:01,110
them to express themselves in any way

1233
00:54:05,570 --> 00:54:03,690
that they wanted Nick isn't it true also

1234
00:54:08,810 --> 00:54:05,580
that some of these contactees maybe ran

1235
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:08,820
to some personal difficulties such as

1236
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:11,610
divorces and such because of this yeah I

1237
00:54:16,370 --> 00:54:14,010
guess the most famous one in conv musi

1238
00:54:18,980 --> 00:54:16,380
one was a story of Truman bathroom

1239
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:18,990
veterans story to me is one of my my

1240
00:54:23,300 --> 00:54:21,090
favorite ones because it sounds so

1241
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:23,310
outrageous so when you dig into you find

1242
00:54:28,460 --> 00:54:25,770
a lot of parallels with his story with

1243
00:54:30,950 --> 00:54:28,470
ancient stories very old centuries-old

1244
00:54:32,330 --> 00:54:30,960
stories of meetings with higher beings

1245
00:54:35,270 --> 00:54:32,340
and higher entities and there's also

1246
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:35,280
like a sociological undercurrent to it

1247
00:54:40,390 --> 00:54:36,810
as well which I'll discuss basically

1248
00:54:43,100 --> 00:54:40,400
bathroom was a road worker and in 1952

1249
00:54:44,930 --> 00:54:43,110
working on highways in Nevada felt

1250
00:54:47,750 --> 00:54:44,940
compelled to go out to this huge Mesa

1251
00:54:50,390 --> 00:54:47,760
called Mormon Mesa where he said he fell

1252
00:54:52,340 --> 00:54:50,400
asleep and woke up to this huge flying

1253
00:54:54,380 --> 00:54:52,350
saucer coming down quite literally like

1254
00:54:56,630 --> 00:54:54,390
something out of debut Stood Still and

1255
00:54:57,980 --> 00:54:56,640
these crew members came out interesting

1256
00:55:00,740 --> 00:54:57,990
that they weren't the classic

1257
00:55:02,690 --> 00:55:00,750
long-haired blonds of the Adamski Van

1258
00:55:04,820 --> 00:55:02,700
Tassel talked about they were actually

1259
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:04,830
smaller like five foot tall we've where

1260
00:55:07,550 --> 00:55:05,610
he caps

1261
00:55:10,670 --> 00:55:07,560
almost sounded like the Betty and Barney

1262
00:55:12,710 --> 00:55:10,680
Hill aliens in some respects but he said

1263
00:55:15,170 --> 00:55:12,720
that to cut a long story short he met

1264
00:55:16,700 --> 00:55:15,180
the the captain of the spacecraft whose

1265
00:55:17,660 --> 00:55:16,710
name was all arranged she was this

1266
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:17,670
beautiful

1267
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:20,010
heart-space babe and the book kind of

1268
00:55:24,620 --> 00:55:21,450
comes across between like Star Trek

1269
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:24,630
meets Baywatch or something like that he

1270
00:55:29,180 --> 00:55:26,490
claimed to have these sort of flirty

1271
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:29,190
late-night encounters with aura reigns

1272
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:31,650
on top of this Mesa you know where they

1273
00:55:37,099 --> 00:55:33,930
would discuss philosophy and things like

1274
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:37,109
this and yes the last of the yes indeed

1275
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:41,490
right well actually no he never claimed

1276
00:55:47,750 --> 00:55:44,930
to have actually have had sex with all

1277
00:55:49,490 --> 00:55:47,760
right yeah that's right to me you know

1278
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:49,500
if there was any truth to the story I

1279
00:55:52,759 --> 00:55:51,210
think you know that would have been the

1280
00:55:54,950 --> 00:55:52,769
next step but he claimed that didn't

1281
00:55:57,019 --> 00:55:54,960
happen but what he did say and what he

1282
00:55:58,250 --> 00:55:57,029
did admit was at the same time he was

1283
00:56:00,410 --> 00:55:58,260
having these meetings with this

1284
00:56:01,940 --> 00:56:00,420
beautiful woman that his second marriage

1285
00:56:04,039 --> 00:56:01,950
was already on the rocks

1286
00:56:06,500 --> 00:56:04,049
if you read the story to me it almost

1287
00:56:08,059 --> 00:56:06,510
comes across as like a self-conscious

1288
00:56:10,279 --> 00:56:08,069
attempt to get away from the

1289
00:56:12,380 --> 00:56:10,289
difficulties of his married life with

1290
00:56:15,109 --> 00:56:12,390
this fantasy woman who would fulfill all

1291
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:15,119
his needs etc he actually married for a

1292
00:56:19,670 --> 00:56:17,490
third time one of the things I point out

1293
00:56:21,890 --> 00:56:19,680
to people not many people realize he

1294
00:56:23,599 --> 00:56:21,900
said his third wife was named Elvira

1295
00:56:27,499 --> 00:56:23,609
Roberts who happens to share the same

1296
00:56:29,450 --> 00:56:27,509
initials as aura Raines they are so it

1297
00:56:31,849 --> 00:56:29,460
was almost as if he didn't impact it on

1298
00:56:34,009 --> 00:56:31,859
his entire married life and a lot of

1299
00:56:36,259 --> 00:56:34,019
people who knew him said that he came

1300
00:56:38,930 --> 00:56:36,269
across as utterly believing his story

1301
00:56:41,509 --> 00:56:38,940
and also though he was supposedly

1302
00:56:43,490 --> 00:56:41,519
obsessed with or arranged for the rest

1303
00:56:45,049 --> 00:56:43,500
of his entire life but he does come

1304
00:56:47,660 --> 00:56:45,059
across to me as someone who may have had

1305
00:56:50,749 --> 00:56:47,670
an experience and literally believed it

1306
00:56:54,079 --> 00:56:50,759
with 100% certainty but it may have been

1307
00:56:56,569 --> 00:56:54,089
some sort of internal fantasy that was

1308
00:56:58,490 --> 00:56:56,579
externalize to such a powerful extent

1309
00:57:01,249 --> 00:56:58,500
but he came to believe it he was married

1310
00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:01,259
three times that's correct he was

1311
00:57:05,990 --> 00:57:03,450
married in the forties which didn't last

1312
00:57:07,579 --> 00:57:06,000
long then the fifties and his wife left

1313
00:57:09,860 --> 00:57:07,589
him because he was supposedly spending

1314
00:57:13,490 --> 00:57:09,870
too much time at all well when

1315
00:57:16,010 --> 00:57:13,500
brains named as the correspondent or

1316
00:57:18,590 --> 00:57:16,020
whatever the term is in his divorce

1317
00:57:20,750 --> 00:57:18,600
proceedings from his second wife yeah

1318
00:57:22,700 --> 00:57:20,760
that was one of the reasons behind the

1319
00:57:24,140 --> 00:57:22,710
divorce was the fact that you know he

1320
00:57:25,340 --> 00:57:24,150
was supposedly getting a little bit too

1321
00:57:27,530 --> 00:57:25,350
close to this

1322
00:57:29,210 --> 00:57:27,540
Gillian woman you know one of the things

1323
00:57:30,710 --> 00:57:29,220
I point out in the block as well is that

1324
00:57:33,410 --> 00:57:30,720
you can look throughout history

1325
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:33,420
particularly in fairy encounters you

1326
00:57:37,910 --> 00:57:35,850
know in the 1500s and 1600 in England

1327
00:57:40,460 --> 00:57:37,920
where someone a man would be enchanted

1328
00:57:43,220 --> 00:57:40,470
by the fairy queen and they would have

1329
00:57:45,830 --> 00:57:43,230
again be late nights and cancered in an

1330
00:57:47,630 --> 00:57:45,840
isolated area may be subject to missing

1331
00:57:49,850 --> 00:57:47,640
time you know kind of a lot of stuff

1332
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:49,860
that ballet talked about in passport to

1333
00:57:55,070 --> 00:57:51,810
Magana and I think there are parallels

1334
00:57:57,200 --> 00:57:55,080
enough parallels in batter and story to

1335
00:57:59,090 --> 00:57:57,210
suggest that there are elements of that

1336
00:58:01,880 --> 00:57:59,100
to the case as well that he was somehow

1337
00:58:03,650 --> 00:58:01,890
you know an altered state of mind and

1338
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:03,660
and may well having encountered

1339
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:05,810
something but perhaps that's something

1340
00:58:10,910 --> 00:58:08,490
manifested in a way that was based

1341
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:10,920
around his internal worries about his

1342
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:13,050
marriages etc you know his third

1343
00:58:20,870 --> 00:58:17,130
marriage was also consummated with the

1344
00:58:23,510 --> 00:58:20,880
ceremony took place at giant rock I

1345
00:58:26,510 --> 00:58:23,520
don't remember exactly which year but I

1346
00:58:29,540 --> 00:58:26,520
just happened to be there and on the

1347
00:58:34,610 --> 00:58:29,550
cover of one of the issues of saucer

1348
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:34,620
news I have a picture of the I was a

1349
00:58:40,670 --> 00:58:36,930
young married couple because they both

1350
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:40,680
were at least middle-aged and looked at

1351
00:58:46,610 --> 00:58:43,530
all definitely the picture of him and

1352
00:58:49,430 --> 00:58:46,620
his I guess last white at the ceremony

1353
00:58:52,450 --> 00:58:49,440
or right after it and I remember I had a

1354
00:58:55,700 --> 00:58:52,460
sarcastic a caption to the picture

1355
00:59:00,380 --> 00:58:55,710
something to the effect that this would

1356
00:59:05,570 --> 00:59:00,390
not take the place in his mind his first

1357
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:05,580
love which was money and it was worded a

1358
00:59:10,359 --> 00:59:07,410
little bit better than that but anyway

1359
00:59:13,249 --> 00:59:10,369
that was my take on him

1360
00:59:14,870 --> 00:59:13,259
it was something interesting that I just

1361
00:59:17,299 --> 00:59:14,880
happen to be there at that time

1362
00:59:19,219 --> 00:59:17,309
Jim Mosley tell our listeners where they

1363
00:59:21,499 --> 00:59:19,229
can learn about saucer smear

1364
00:59:23,509 --> 00:59:21,509
well it's plenty of the two of theirs he

1365
00:59:26,179 --> 00:59:23,519
can in fact you can say in the funny way

1366
00:59:28,969 --> 00:59:26,189
if you want well yes you can do it any

1367
00:59:32,739 --> 00:59:28,979
way you want but just send a letter or

1368
00:59:35,599 --> 00:59:32,749
nose or a psychic message or anything to

1369
00:59:38,449 --> 00:59:35,609
saucer smear you don't even need that

1370
00:59:43,219 --> 00:59:38,459
it's cause there's mere two words pedo

1371
00:59:44,209 --> 00:59:43,229
box 1 7 oh nothing he was two words he

1372
00:59:47,809 --> 00:59:44,219
was Florida

1373
00:59:50,239 --> 00:59:47,819
3 304 1 and so you're interested in

1374
00:59:51,140 --> 00:59:50,249
receiving the magazine and will take

1375
00:59:53,509 --> 00:59:51,150
care of it from there

1376
00:59:55,489 --> 00:59:53,519
we have Nick Redfern author of

1377
00:59:57,559 --> 00:59:55,499
contactees history of alien human

1378
01:00:00,049 --> 00:59:57,569
interaction Jim Mosely editor of saucer

1379
01:00:05,479 --> 01:00:00,059
smear more on the other side of the

1380
01:00:07,130 --> 01:00:05,489
power cast we want to hear from you if

1381
01:00:10,339 --> 01:00:07,140
you have a comment a question about the

1382
01:00:14,299 --> 01:00:10,349
pair cast send it to news at the podcast

1383
01:00:16,279 --> 01:00:14,309
calm that's news at the podcast calm and

1384
01:00:17,989 --> 01:00:16,289
don't forget to visit our forums where

1385
01:00:20,539 --> 01:00:17,999
you can talk to fellow listeners just go

1386
01:00:23,029 --> 01:00:20,549
to the para cast calm and click on the

1387
01:00:31,370 --> 01:00:23,039
forum links that's the forum links at

1388
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:33,780
welcome back to the parent house with

1389
01:00:45,740 --> 01:00:43,460
we have Nick Redfern co-hosts author of

1390
01:00:48,650 --> 01:00:45,750
contactees a history of alien human

1391
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:48,660
interaction gia Mosley editor of saucers

1392
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:51,570
smear and we're looking into the life

1393
01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:53,970
and times of the UFO contactees in this

1394
01:00:58,580 --> 01:00:55,250
hour we'll start with leading them to

1395
01:01:01,040 --> 01:00:58,590
more recent events and kind of see what

1396
01:01:03,740 --> 01:01:01,050
happens Nick did any of these contactees

1397
01:01:06,490 --> 01:01:03,750
ever run afoul of the law where the

1398
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:06,500
police got after them for alleged

1399
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:09,930
thievery or fraud oh yeah the old

1400
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:11,490
chapter in the book a man who actually

1401
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:13,290
wasn't that well known in the field his

1402
01:01:18,020 --> 01:01:15,450
name was Harold Bernie he wrote a book

1403
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:18,030
called my trip to Venus now Harold

1404
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:20,610
Bernie was a sign painter and not many

1405
01:01:23,750 --> 01:01:22,290
people would even within the contactee

1406
01:01:26,540 --> 01:01:23,760
movement know of him but I got hold of

1407
01:01:30,220 --> 01:01:26,550
his FBI file which talks about how he'd

1408
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:30,230
basically conned a woman literally as

1409
01:01:35,750 --> 01:01:32,370
exaggerated as tens of thousands of

1410
01:01:38,300 --> 01:01:35,760
dollars to help fund basically his trip

1411
01:01:40,930 --> 01:01:38,310
to Venus and building a spaceport and

1412
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:40,940
all sorts of you know classic 1950s

1413
01:01:46,940 --> 01:01:44,010
flying saucer type phenomena if you like

1414
01:01:48,710 --> 01:01:46,950
I mean he was like a really tragic case

1415
01:01:51,140 --> 01:01:48,720
of this woman who was basically just

1416
01:01:52,970 --> 01:01:51,150
taken in by this man and you know just

1417
01:01:54,770 --> 01:01:52,980
fleeced of all their money and he

1418
01:01:56,240 --> 01:01:54,780
received a lengthy jail sentence and the

1419
01:01:57,740 --> 01:01:56,250
FBI would were chasing him all around

1420
01:01:59,330 --> 01:01:57,750
the country trying to catch up with him

1421
01:02:01,370 --> 01:01:59,340
you changing names and changing

1422
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:01,380
locations you know that's sort of one of

1423
01:02:05,660 --> 01:02:04,170
the darker ceadeus eyes I suppose you

1424
01:02:06,980 --> 01:02:05,670
know where for the most part where the

1425
01:02:09,350 --> 01:02:06,990
people believe you or not they were

1426
01:02:11,660 --> 01:02:09,360
entertained by it but you know when you

1427
01:02:14,870 --> 01:02:11,670
find a woman whose life was destroyed

1428
01:02:17,180 --> 01:02:14,880
because she basically gullibly gave all

1429
01:02:19,580 --> 01:02:17,190
our money away what if this show is you

1430
01:02:21,500 --> 01:02:19,590
know the sheer spell that many of these

1431
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:21,510
people had over their followers and I

1432
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:23,010
think that's one of the things that the

1433
01:02:27,590 --> 01:02:25,410
authorities were interested in worried

1434
01:02:30,500 --> 01:02:27,600
about was the the concentration of how

1435
01:02:32,300 --> 01:02:30,510
how people's lives could be affected and

1436
01:02:35,060 --> 01:02:32,310
and literally changed overnight

1437
01:02:37,070 --> 01:02:35,070
by becoming followers of the contactees

1438
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:37,080
now of course there are other people I

1439
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:39,450
gota ski car you know who got into

1440
01:02:43,550 --> 01:02:41,370
trouble with the authorities as well it

1441
01:02:45,740 --> 01:02:43,560
was you know like a cosmic equivalent of

1442
01:02:47,210 --> 01:02:45,750
a used car sales you know something like

1443
01:02:49,100 --> 01:02:47,220
that always coming up with new plans and

1444
01:02:51,609 --> 01:02:49,110
ideas that dropped him in hot water and

1445
01:02:54,759 --> 01:02:51,619
sometimes implicated

1446
01:02:57,190 --> 01:02:54,769
deliberately people like Wayne aho who

1447
01:02:59,349 --> 01:02:57,200
got involved without his T car and then

1448
01:03:00,910 --> 01:02:59,359
found himself in hot water not through

1449
01:03:03,940 --> 01:03:00,920
anything that he did but sort of guilt

1450
01:03:05,890 --> 01:03:03,950
by association so some of them were sort

1451
01:03:07,390 --> 01:03:05,900
of colorful characters best avoided if

1452
01:03:13,180 --> 01:03:07,400
you got a few dollars in your pocket

1453
01:03:17,529 --> 01:03:13,190
you know Wayne aho was originally named

1454
01:03:20,259 --> 01:03:17,539
or called wing a ho and he insisted on

1455
01:03:24,729 --> 01:03:20,269
changing the pronunciation of his last

1456
01:03:28,089 --> 01:03:24,739
names aho because a ho sounds too much

1457
01:03:29,319 --> 01:03:28,099
like yes yes that we probably can't say

1458
01:03:32,410 --> 01:03:29,329
on this very high-class

1459
01:03:34,150 --> 01:03:32,420
radio program okay that's what I like

1460
01:03:36,069 --> 01:03:34,160
about Jim stories just got all these

1461
01:03:38,469 --> 01:03:36,079
weird Atlantic doubts ahold of that

1462
01:03:41,140 --> 01:03:38,479
these people from years ago well yeah I

1463
01:03:43,870 --> 01:03:41,150
mean there was always something amusing

1464
01:03:46,450 --> 01:03:43,880
about them you know one thing that comes

1465
01:03:50,049 --> 01:03:46,460
to my mind when I went as I say several

1466
01:03:54,099 --> 01:03:50,059
times over the years to giant rock Van

1467
01:03:56,109 --> 01:03:54,109
Tassel was a very very nice person again

1468
01:03:58,660 --> 01:03:56,119
he's one of the people that didn't seem

1469
01:04:01,630 --> 01:03:58,670
to hold it against me that I was known

1470
01:04:03,969 --> 01:04:01,640
as a skeptic as far as the contactees

1471
01:04:07,089 --> 01:04:03,979
were concerned I wasn't a skeptic about

1472
01:04:10,479 --> 01:04:07,099
saucers only in in regard to their

1473
01:04:13,329 --> 01:04:10,489
particular stories and I remember I

1474
01:04:16,209 --> 01:04:13,339
forget how it began but one of those

1475
01:04:19,680 --> 01:04:16,219
years I asked Van Tassel if I could

1476
01:04:22,749 --> 01:04:19,690
speak from the lock of what he had was

1477
01:04:25,029 --> 01:04:22,759
that really was of course a giant rock I

1478
01:04:28,319 --> 01:04:25,039
don't never just how taller was ninety

1479
01:04:31,329 --> 01:04:28,329
thirty Steve or so and he had built a

1480
01:04:32,829 --> 01:04:31,339
stairway a wooden stairway that went to

1481
01:04:35,380 --> 01:04:32,839
the top and then there was a platform

1482
01:04:39,160 --> 01:04:35,390
there where you could stand comfortably

1483
01:04:41,890 --> 01:04:39,170
and it was a mic setup and so on so one

1484
01:04:43,779 --> 01:04:41,900
by one people would give their speeches

1485
01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:43,789
in the course of the day and I don't

1486
01:04:47,670 --> 01:04:45,650
think there was any schedule of it as

1487
01:04:51,249 --> 01:04:47,680
far as I remember it was just ad-libbed

1488
01:04:53,410 --> 01:04:51,259
so when I asked Van Tassel can I speak

1489
01:04:56,259 --> 01:04:53,420
from the rock he said sure go ahead and

1490
01:04:59,259 --> 01:04:56,269
I said well how long do I have he said

1491
01:05:01,029 --> 01:04:59,269
take as long as you want and I think he

1492
01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:01,039
meant it so I got up there and just said

1493
01:05:04,089 --> 01:05:01,970
a few words

1494
01:05:06,130 --> 01:05:04,099
the crowd and so on but I just thought

1495
01:05:08,290 --> 01:05:06,140
it was very nice of them I did that two

1496
01:05:10,630 --> 01:05:08,300
or three different years I don't think

1497
01:05:13,420 --> 01:05:10,640
the crowd the ones that knew me were

1498
01:05:15,970 --> 01:05:13,430
particularly happy to see me or hear for

1499
01:05:18,550 --> 01:05:15,980
me but the entire soul of course was

1500
01:05:22,839 --> 01:05:18,560
really nice about it and just another

1501
01:05:25,089 --> 01:05:22,849
thing he had most of those years at

1502
01:05:27,460 --> 01:05:25,099
least a thousand or two people sometimes

1503
01:05:30,099 --> 01:05:27,470
more that would come out to the desert

1504
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:30,109
and park their cars or their vans or

1505
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:33,410
campers or whatever in the vicinity

1506
01:05:37,210 --> 01:05:35,690
he didn't attempt to charge them

1507
01:05:40,300 --> 01:05:37,220
anything for any of that

1508
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:40,310
the only commercialism there was his

1509
01:05:46,570 --> 01:05:44,090
wife ran a little hamburger stand and no

1510
01:05:49,060 --> 01:05:46,580
one else did is not that she had these

1511
01:05:52,540 --> 01:05:49,070
foods is nobody else tried to so I guess

1512
01:05:54,250 --> 01:05:52,550
he made a little money from that but in

1513
01:05:54,820 --> 01:05:54,260
his own way he seemed like a very decent

1514
01:05:57,849 --> 01:05:54,830
fella

1515
01:06:01,589 --> 01:05:57,859
now about the Integra Tron this thing

1516
01:06:04,420 --> 01:06:01,599
this big Observatory type tower or

1517
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:04,430
globular thing that he built in the

1518
01:06:08,829 --> 01:06:07,010
desert Nick what was the outcome of that

1519
01:06:10,570 --> 01:06:08,839
what were they promising of it and

1520
01:06:12,550 --> 01:06:10,580
whatever happened to that device well

1521
01:06:14,470 --> 01:06:12,560
basically it's still there I've been out

1522
01:06:17,260 --> 01:06:14,480
to the integratron several times and you

1523
01:06:19,770 --> 01:06:17,270
quiet right it looks like this best way

1524
01:06:21,579 --> 01:06:19,780
to describe is kind of like a huge

1525
01:06:24,460 --> 01:06:21,589
astronomical observatory it's like a

1526
01:06:26,109 --> 01:06:24,470
two-story domed white building out in

1527
01:06:28,420 --> 01:06:26,119
the desert near the town of Landers

1528
01:06:32,530 --> 01:06:28,430
which is a couple of hours drive outside

1529
01:06:34,180 --> 01:06:32,540
of LA and the the idea was according to

1530
01:06:36,609 --> 01:06:34,190
Van Tassel was that it was built on the

1531
01:06:39,599 --> 01:06:36,619
instructions of the space brothers and

1532
01:06:42,670 --> 01:06:39,609
it would have the ability to I guess

1533
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:42,680
rejuvenate human body cells and the

1534
01:06:47,109 --> 01:06:44,570
human body so whether we would achieve

1535
01:06:49,180 --> 01:06:47,119
immortality or an extended or

1536
01:06:51,040 --> 01:06:49,190
drastically extended lifespan I guess

1537
01:06:53,230 --> 01:06:51,050
he's open to question but but that was

1538
01:06:54,910 --> 01:06:53,240
the that was the notion of it was when

1539
01:06:58,150 --> 01:06:54,920
he was finished I guess it would contain

1540
01:07:00,430 --> 01:06:58,160
technologies or you know some sort of

1541
01:07:03,820 --> 01:07:00,440
power that would would rejuvenate body

1542
01:07:05,530 --> 01:07:03,830
cells etc now again you know whether or

1543
01:07:08,349 --> 01:07:05,540
not that's true or that's open to

1544
01:07:10,390 --> 01:07:08,359
interpretation as to whether or not Van

1545
01:07:11,810 --> 01:07:10,400
Tassel believed it or you know he was

1546
01:07:13,820 --> 01:07:11,820
told something who knows

1547
01:07:16,060 --> 01:07:13,830
but that was the essential theme of it

1548
01:07:18,590 --> 01:07:16,070
today they they used to have a

1549
01:07:20,660 --> 01:07:18,600
conference there which was held for I

1550
01:07:22,580 --> 01:07:20,670
think three years I spoke at the last

1551
01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:22,590
one which is called the retro UFO

1552
01:07:26,660 --> 01:07:24,810
conference was actually very good idea

1553
01:07:29,480 --> 01:07:26,670
because he was actually held out a giant

1554
01:07:32,480 --> 01:07:29,490
rock and the integratron and it was very

1555
01:07:34,640 --> 01:07:32,490
much themed around you know the early

1556
01:07:36,770 --> 01:07:34,650
years of ufology not in kind of like

1557
01:07:39,050 --> 01:07:36,780
wallowing in nostalgia but just bringing

1558
01:07:40,490 --> 01:07:39,060
home to a new audience the early years

1559
01:07:42,890 --> 01:07:40,500
of the subject a lot of people didn't

1560
01:07:45,620 --> 01:07:42,900
know about and you know for me to go out

1561
01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:45,630
there and to see the integratron having

1562
01:07:50,050 --> 01:07:47,490
heard about it for years who it was sort

1563
01:07:52,940 --> 01:07:50,060
of like a interesting and even powerful

1564
01:07:54,590 --> 01:07:52,950
experience to actually be where I guess

1565
01:07:56,300 --> 01:07:54,600
youthful article history was made

1566
01:07:58,610 --> 01:07:56,310
regardless of what you know you think

1567
01:08:00,650 --> 01:07:58,620
about these people and it still stands

1568
01:08:03,140 --> 01:08:00,660
to this day and they have seminars

1569
01:08:04,580 --> 01:08:03,150
lectures meditations and all sorts of

1570
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:04,590
things there so it's in other words it's

1571
01:08:13,750 --> 01:08:07,290
still like a viable place why did they

1572
01:08:16,039 --> 01:08:13,760
stop having the conventions I know I

1573
01:08:17,870 --> 01:08:16,049
gracefully don't know I mean if you look

1574
01:08:20,720 --> 01:08:17,880
at it yeah I mean you know I'm sure as

1575
01:08:22,789 --> 01:08:20,730
you can attest back in the 50s when he

1576
01:08:24,470 --> 01:08:22,799
was at his height the conference's of

1577
01:08:26,180 --> 01:08:24,480
j-rod were getting thousands of people

1578
01:08:28,910 --> 01:08:26,190
when I was there I think there were

1579
01:08:30,860 --> 01:08:28,920
maybe 60 people and I'm sure you know it

1580
01:08:34,730 --> 01:08:30,870
costs quite a bit of money to fly people

1581
01:08:37,039 --> 01:08:34,740
in and put an event on and I guess I

1582
01:08:39,500 --> 01:08:37,049
don't know 60 people could see you know

1583
01:08:41,900 --> 01:08:39,510
in terms of making it viable or not do

1584
01:08:44,750 --> 01:08:41,910
you know who who owns it now or what

1585
01:08:47,329 --> 01:08:44,760
kind of people own the entire I'm not

1586
01:08:49,490 --> 01:08:47,339
actually sure that no I'm not too sure

1587
01:08:52,039 --> 01:08:49,500
enough well you know it went to several

1588
01:08:56,840 --> 01:08:52,049
different incarnations you might say

1589
01:08:59,210 --> 01:08:56,850
after Van Tassel died and I I don't know

1590
01:09:02,090 --> 01:08:59,220
the whole story either it's been closed

1591
01:09:04,490 --> 01:09:02,100
for periods of time it's they tried this

1592
01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:04,500
they tried that I think they even tried

1593
01:09:09,320 --> 01:09:06,690
to make it into a wedding chapel at one

1594
01:09:11,329 --> 01:09:09,330
point but as you say even though the

1595
01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:11,339
conventions are stuffed again now they

1596
01:09:16,820 --> 01:09:14,970
do have other activities you know I'm

1597
01:09:17,740 --> 01:09:16,830
going to ask a question here that comes

1598
01:09:19,450 --> 01:09:17,750
up now

1599
01:09:21,580 --> 01:09:19,460
which is we're talking about the

1600
01:09:24,460 --> 01:09:21,590
contactees they were popular in the 50s

1601
01:09:26,290 --> 01:09:24,470
and the 60s then we heard about Barney

1602
01:09:28,180 --> 01:09:26,300
and Benny Hill and this is a line of

1603
01:09:30,970 --> 01:09:28,190
demarcation we kind of forgot about the

1604
01:09:35,050 --> 01:09:30,980
contactees Nick was it all about the

1605
01:09:37,750 --> 01:09:35,060
contact claims basically winding down or

1606
01:09:39,310 --> 01:09:37,760
was our attention focus elsewhere well I

1607
01:09:41,770 --> 01:09:39,320
think this is this is an interesting

1608
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:41,780
thing it's for example people people

1609
01:09:47,710 --> 01:09:45,010
assume I think quite wrongly that the

1610
01:09:50,140 --> 01:09:47,720
contactee movement was replaced by you

1611
01:09:52,420 --> 01:09:50,150
know these little gray guys with the

1612
01:09:55,990 --> 01:09:52,430
black eyes you know involved in the

1613
01:09:57,700 --> 01:09:56,000
abductions in reality the the contactee

1614
01:10:01,180 --> 01:09:57,710
movement never went away you can still

1615
01:10:03,340 --> 01:10:01,190
find classic Tom tatty cases to this day

1616
01:10:04,750 --> 01:10:03,350
but certainly not as prevalent and I

1617
01:10:06,700 --> 01:10:04,760
think the other big thing that people

1618
01:10:09,280 --> 01:10:06,710
forget is they're not publicized as much

1619
01:10:10,810 --> 01:10:09,290
today you know so in other words the

1620
01:10:13,630 --> 01:10:10,820
contactee movement was definitely

1621
01:10:15,490 --> 01:10:13,640
overshadowed by the abduction movements

1622
01:10:18,190 --> 01:10:15,500
but it wasn't a case as some people

1623
01:10:20,620 --> 01:10:18,200
think that one just literally replaced

1624
01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:20,630
the other one I think what happened is

1625
01:10:26,260 --> 01:10:22,130
that probably as our technologies

1626
01:10:28,450 --> 01:10:26,270
developed people perceive abductions and

1627
01:10:31,840 --> 01:10:28,460
you know the genetic experiment angle as

1628
01:10:33,400 --> 01:10:31,850
being more logical and serious than the

1629
01:10:35,500 --> 01:10:33,410
space brothers angle there's a lot of

1630
01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:35,510
people within the UFO subjects who are

1631
01:10:40,660 --> 01:10:37,810
striving to be taken very very seriously

1632
01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:40,670
you know the fact is there are massively

1633
01:10:44,860 --> 01:10:43,130
absurd things in ufology which we

1634
01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:44,870
shouldn't ignore that you know ufology

1635
01:10:51,430 --> 01:10:49,610
can be as funny humorous wacky absurd

1636
01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:51,440
subject and we should embrace that there

1637
01:10:55,360 --> 01:10:53,210
are so many people who feel it threatens

1638
01:10:58,900 --> 01:10:55,370
their credibility so they steered away

1639
01:11:00,460 --> 01:10:58,910
from the contactee issue and move more

1640
01:11:03,790 --> 01:11:00,470
into the area they saw that would give

1641
01:11:06,250 --> 01:11:03,800
them respectability ie the issue of

1642
01:11:08,640 --> 01:11:06,260
alien scientists coming and treating us

1643
01:11:10,780 --> 01:11:08,650
like lab rats which seems you know

1644
01:11:12,550 --> 01:11:10,790
plausible so I think that's what

1645
01:11:15,020 --> 01:11:12,560
happened that the old times just got

1646
01:11:16,820 --> 01:11:15,030
eclipsed by the newer times

1647
01:11:20,180 --> 01:11:16,830
well let's talk about newer times are

1648
01:11:22,400 --> 01:11:20,190
there current day contact deeds that we

1649
01:11:24,770 --> 01:11:22,410
should know about that have claims that

1650
01:11:26,300 --> 01:11:24,780
are similar to the original of course

1651
01:11:35,050 --> 01:11:26,310
they're not coming from Venus anymore

1652
01:11:38,660 --> 01:11:37,190
yeah but I mean I interviewed a couple

1653
01:11:40,460 --> 01:11:38,670
of people for the book who told me quite

1654
01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:40,470
openly you know that they had

1655
01:11:45,770 --> 01:11:44,010
experiences with aliens where you know

1656
01:11:47,450 --> 01:11:45,780
there was human like aliens I talk in

1657
01:11:50,050 --> 01:11:47,460
the book about one of Stonehenge of all

1658
01:11:53,060 --> 01:11:50,060
places where somebody had seen this

1659
01:11:54,290 --> 01:11:53,070
human-like being but there was something

1660
01:11:56,690 --> 01:11:54,300
strange about them they're dressed in

1661
01:11:59,840 --> 01:11:56,700
like a one-piece ski suit long blonde

1662
01:12:02,480 --> 01:11:59,850
hair and literally vanished in the wink

1663
01:12:04,370 --> 01:12:02,490
of an eye after just approaching someone

1664
01:12:06,710 --> 01:12:04,380
and talking about crop circles and how

1665
01:12:09,590 --> 01:12:06,720
crop circles were a message from the

1666
01:12:11,540 --> 01:12:09,600
aliens warning us to change our ways so

1667
01:12:14,270 --> 01:12:11,550
in other words the same message and

1668
01:12:16,580 --> 01:12:14,280
motif was being used in England in

1669
01:12:19,640 --> 01:12:16,590
across in Stonehenge in relation to crop

1670
01:12:21,350 --> 01:12:19,650
circles in the 1990s as is being used

1671
01:12:23,660 --> 01:12:21,360
back in the California desert in the

1672
01:12:26,200 --> 01:12:23,670
fist is now again the big question is

1673
01:12:28,490 --> 01:12:26,210
whether this is or some sort of internal

1674
01:12:30,590 --> 01:12:28,500
experience of the witness or the

1675
01:12:32,870 --> 01:12:30,600
literally is some sort of higher

1676
01:12:34,910 --> 01:12:32,880
intelligence you know traveling the

1677
01:12:35,960 --> 01:12:34,920
decades and the planet trying to get

1678
01:12:38,330 --> 01:12:35,970
these messages across

1679
01:12:40,970 --> 01:12:38,340
but this case I mean this case came

1680
01:12:43,850 --> 01:12:40,980
across as a classic contact TV event

1681
01:12:45,380 --> 01:12:43,860
there's no doubt about that so so the

1682
01:12:47,450 --> 01:12:45,390
scale of the reports might have gone

1683
01:12:49,250 --> 01:12:47,460
down but whatever's behind this

1684
01:12:52,210 --> 01:12:49,260
phenomenon it's still out there sort of

1685
01:12:56,030 --> 01:12:52,220
playing its tricks and it's games etc

1686
01:12:59,990 --> 01:12:56,040
well Nick do you think any of the kind

1687
01:13:03,380 --> 01:13:00,000
of the crop circles are made by aliens

1688
01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:03,390
or other unknown sources or are they all

1689
01:13:08,240 --> 01:13:05,850
hoaxes well you know it's interesting

1690
01:13:10,190 --> 01:13:08,250
how you use the term hoaxes Jim because

1691
01:13:11,540 --> 01:13:10,200
I do think the crop circles and

1692
01:13:14,330 --> 01:13:11,550
formations are made by people

1693
01:13:17,120 --> 01:13:14,340
predominantly and I certainly think all

1694
01:13:19,460 --> 01:13:17,130
the complex ones are now I actually know

1695
01:13:21,300 --> 01:13:19,470
a number of people make formations and

1696
01:13:25,140 --> 01:13:21,310
when people call them hoaxes

1697
01:13:26,550 --> 01:13:25,150
that implies basically that these people

1698
01:13:28,980 --> 01:13:26,560
are pulling the wall other people other

1699
01:13:31,590 --> 01:13:28,990
people's eyes and trying to deceive them

1700
01:13:33,420 --> 01:13:31,600
however if you look into it where you

1701
01:13:36,890 --> 01:13:33,430
actually find is that many of the people

1702
01:13:39,660 --> 01:13:36,900
who make the crop circle formations have

1703
01:13:42,660 --> 01:13:39,670
agendas and motivations that go far

1704
01:13:43,440 --> 01:13:42,670
beyond or don't even include trying to

1705
01:13:46,350 --> 01:13:43,450
trick people

1706
01:13:48,300 --> 01:13:46,360
for example mmm some people may crop

1707
01:13:51,690 --> 01:13:48,310
circles view what they do is a form of

1708
01:13:55,050 --> 01:13:51,700
artwork and instead of using paints and

1709
01:13:57,810 --> 01:13:55,060
pencils and easels etc they use the

1710
01:13:59,700 --> 01:13:57,820
medium of crop and they feel that what

1711
01:14:01,710 --> 01:13:59,710
they're doing is presenting a new type

1712
01:14:04,200 --> 01:14:01,720
of artwork that people can come and see

1713
01:14:05,400 --> 01:14:04,210
and interact with you know you don't

1714
01:14:06,990 --> 01:14:05,410
just go to a museum and look at a

1715
01:14:10,890 --> 01:14:07,000
painting on a wall with a crop circle

1716
01:14:13,410 --> 01:14:10,900
you enter the field you feel changed by

1717
01:14:14,760 --> 01:14:13,420
it and rejuvenate it as some people said

1718
01:14:17,220 --> 01:14:14,770
it's almost like an interactive

1719
01:14:19,890 --> 01:14:17,230
experience now I have another friend of

1720
01:14:21,990 --> 01:14:19,900
mine Matthew Williams who has the who

1721
01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:22,000
can claim and boast of being the only

1722
01:14:27,180 --> 01:14:24,250
person ever arrested and convicted

1723
01:14:29,250 --> 01:14:27,190
charged and convicted in Britain of

1724
01:14:32,030 --> 01:14:29,260
making a crop circle if the actual

1725
01:14:36,300 --> 01:14:32,040
charge was causing damage to a field

1726
01:14:38,910 --> 01:14:36,310
yeah yeah but Matthew Matthew has had a

1727
01:14:41,670 --> 01:14:38,920
number of very weird experiences in crop

1728
01:14:43,890 --> 01:14:41,680
circles that he has personally made such

1729
01:14:46,860 --> 01:14:43,900
as seeing strange balls of light over

1730
01:14:49,020 --> 01:14:46,870
the formation experiencing missing time

1731
01:14:51,450 --> 01:14:49,030
all sorts of strange things and Matthew

1732
01:14:54,290 --> 01:14:51,460
actually thinks that many of the circle

1733
01:14:56,520 --> 01:14:54,300
makers are actually kind of being

1734
01:14:59,310 --> 01:14:56,530
channeled by some sort of higher

1735
01:15:01,350 --> 01:14:59,320
intelligence which is instilling them to

1736
01:15:03,480 --> 01:15:01,360
go out to make the formation so they're

1737
01:15:05,970 --> 01:15:03,490
almost factoring is like a channeler or

1738
01:15:08,130 --> 01:15:05,980
as a contactee for some intelligence and

1739
01:15:10,140 --> 01:15:08,140
whereas people like a dam ski and Van

1740
01:15:12,210 --> 01:15:10,150
Tassel we're going out on the lecture

1741
01:15:15,090 --> 01:15:12,220
circuit today's people are being

1742
01:15:16,650 --> 01:15:15,100
provoked to make these formation so we

1743
01:15:19,770 --> 01:15:16,660
think about them and try and interpret

1744
01:15:22,140 --> 01:15:19,780
them so you know that in other ways that

1745
01:15:24,720 --> 01:15:22,150
the people involved in the phenomenon on

1746
01:15:27,840 --> 01:15:24,730
hoaxes there seems to it goes far deeper

1747
01:15:30,630 --> 01:15:27,850
as well with that so I think I think you

1748
01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:30,640
make a very good point because from what

1749
01:15:35,480 --> 01:15:31,330
little I

1750
01:15:38,730 --> 01:15:35,490
about it most of the people that know

1751
01:15:43,230 --> 01:15:38,740
how to make these tough circles and have

1752
01:15:47,510 --> 01:15:43,240
confessed having done so are themselves

1753
01:15:54,060 --> 01:15:47,520
on some kind of a spiritual kiss and and

1754
01:15:58,050 --> 01:15:54,070
they if I'm not mistaken have had we

1755
01:16:02,730 --> 01:15:58,060
might say abnormal or super normal

1756
01:16:05,240 --> 01:16:02,740
experiences when hanging out as it were

1757
01:16:09,300 --> 01:16:05,250
in their own soft circles in other words

1758
01:16:11,510 --> 01:16:09,310
it's indeed not a hoax and I used the

1759
01:16:15,330 --> 01:16:11,520
wrong word they are expressing their

1760
01:16:17,430 --> 01:16:15,340
spirituality I suppose by doing this is

1761
01:16:19,620 --> 01:16:17,440
that right yeah that's right and I think

1762
01:16:20,760 --> 01:16:19,630
that's what a lot of people again who

1763
01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:20,770
view it as black and white

1764
01:16:24,930 --> 01:16:22,810
a lot of people in the UFO field one

1765
01:16:26,160 --> 01:16:24,940
crop circles to be made by aliens it's

1766
01:16:28,020 --> 01:16:26,170
not just that they believe they're made

1767
01:16:30,270 --> 01:16:28,030
by aliens they actually wants that

1768
01:16:31,890 --> 01:16:30,280
theory to be true because it fits in

1769
01:16:35,250 --> 01:16:31,900
with their kind of comfort zone and

1770
01:16:37,320 --> 01:16:35,260
their belief system now my view is that

1771
01:16:40,230 --> 01:16:37,330
when you start having belief systems

1772
01:16:48,360 --> 01:16:40,240
that are rigidly held you know you fall

1773
01:16:50,130 --> 01:16:48,370
into a trap you'll never get out of hey

1774
01:16:52,890 --> 01:16:50,140
neighbors would you like to see the

1775
01:16:54,690 --> 01:16:52,900
power cast live long and prosper well if

1776
01:16:56,940 --> 01:16:54,700
you know of anyone who wants to

1777
01:16:59,070 --> 01:16:56,950
advertise their products or services on

1778
01:17:01,830 --> 01:16:59,080
the power cast have them contact us

1779
01:17:05,640 --> 01:17:01,840
directly tell them to write to sales at

1780
01:17:08,400 --> 01:17:05,650
the para cast com best sales at the para

1781
01:17:11,040 --> 01:17:08,410
cast outcome and we also accept your

1782
01:17:13,770 --> 01:17:11,050
donations by paypal send your PayPal

1783
01:17:16,890 --> 01:17:13,780
donation to the same address sales at

1784
01:17:19,490 --> 01:17:16,900
Lapera cast calm at sales at the power

1785
01:17:35,160 --> 01:17:19,500
cast calm and thanks for listening

1786
01:17:51,839 --> 01:17:42,900
[Music]

1787
01:17:57,549 --> 01:17:54,370
on the para cats we have Nick Redfern

1788
01:18:00,430 --> 01:17:57,559
author of contactees a history of alien

1789
01:18:02,950 --> 01:18:00,440
human interaction Jim Mosely editor of

1790
01:18:06,549 --> 01:18:02,960
saucer smear you were saying Nick about

1791
01:18:08,770 --> 01:18:06,559
this yeah I think you know that people

1792
01:18:10,870 --> 01:18:08,780
within the crop circle your research

1793
01:18:13,209 --> 01:18:10,880
community they want crop circles to be

1794
01:18:15,850 --> 01:18:13,219
made by aliens you know them that is the

1795
01:18:17,859 --> 01:18:15,860
primary focus of a lot of people's

1796
01:18:19,930 --> 01:18:17,869
research now when you have a belief

1797
01:18:21,970 --> 01:18:19,940
system about crop circles or any

1798
01:18:24,790 --> 01:18:21,980
phenomenon then you kind of you're

1799
01:18:27,970 --> 01:18:24,800
already lost you know we need to have an

1800
01:18:30,459 --> 01:18:27,980
open mind not a rigidly set mind and I

1801
01:18:33,069 --> 01:18:30,469
think what be what a lot of people in

1802
01:18:35,560 --> 01:18:33,079
the crop circle UFO research community

1803
01:18:37,600 --> 01:18:35,570
haven't done is to get to know the

1804
01:18:39,549 --> 01:18:37,610
people who make these formations and

1805
01:18:41,549 --> 01:18:39,559
I've heard had several good friends who

1806
01:18:44,140 --> 01:18:41,559
do this one of them Matthew Williams and

1807
01:18:46,419 --> 01:18:44,150
as Jim said you know a lot of these

1808
01:18:49,350 --> 01:18:46,429
people they're not necessarily religious

1809
01:18:51,879 --> 01:18:49,360
but they do have deeply held spiritual

1810
01:18:54,040 --> 01:18:51,889
mind/body/spirit views and they feel

1811
01:18:56,830 --> 01:18:54,050
some of them at least that creating

1812
01:18:58,689 --> 01:18:56,840
these formations kind of you know

1813
01:19:01,359 --> 01:18:58,699
bridges a link between the physical

1814
01:19:03,430 --> 01:19:01,369
world and the paranormal world and that

1815
01:19:05,560 --> 01:19:03,440
maybe they're acting as a vessel from

1816
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:05,570
something you know in another realm of

1817
01:19:09,819 --> 01:19:07,730
existence to actually create these

1818
01:19:11,830 --> 01:19:09,829
formations like they're a channeler for

1819
01:19:14,020 --> 01:19:11,840
something and then they're the the

1820
01:19:17,109 --> 01:19:14,030
artist and again it's a controversial

1821
01:19:18,819 --> 01:19:17,119
theory but it doesn't take away as the

1822
01:19:21,850 --> 01:19:18,829
possibility of some people think that

1823
01:19:23,799 --> 01:19:21,860
crop circles have anomalous origins what

1824
01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:23,809
it means though is that if there is some

1825
01:19:29,589 --> 01:19:26,570
force behind them it's actually using

1826
01:19:31,310 --> 01:19:29,599
the crop circle makers to achieve its

1827
01:19:34,970 --> 01:19:31,320
aims so to speak

1828
01:19:37,069 --> 01:19:34,980
a question of either real or hoax it's

1829
01:19:39,410 --> 01:19:37,079
far more complex than that that's all I

1830
01:19:42,080 --> 01:19:39,420
wanted to say well let's look back at

1831
01:19:44,060 --> 01:19:42,090
the contactee claims and we look at the

1832
01:19:46,250 --> 01:19:44,070
fanciful claims we look at the fact that

1833
01:19:48,709 --> 01:19:46,260
people had messages of peace and

1834
01:19:50,450 --> 01:19:48,719
brotherhood like Adamski they wanted to

1835
01:19:52,550 --> 01:19:50,460
present it in a way they felt would be

1836
01:19:54,260 --> 01:19:52,560
acceptable so instead of having to come

1837
01:19:57,050 --> 01:19:54,270
out of this unknown guy named George

1838
01:19:59,660 --> 01:19:57,060
Adamski the blond-haired Venusians from

1839
01:20:03,140 --> 01:19:59,670
Venus bring it but we alluded to this

1840
01:20:07,100 --> 01:20:03,150
earlier is there any genuine paranormal

1841
01:20:09,229 --> 01:20:07,110
aspect to any of it where may we find it

1842
01:20:13,100 --> 01:20:09,239
Nick to the contactee movement you mean

1843
01:20:15,379 --> 01:20:13,110
yes well you know I think I think like

1844
01:20:20,149 --> 01:20:15,389
all of you follow gee what we're lacking

1845
01:20:22,790 --> 01:20:20,159
is proof you know there is no proof all

1846
01:20:25,640 --> 01:20:22,800
we have to work with the theories ideas

1847
01:20:27,379 --> 01:20:25,650
and witness testimony you know it's like

1848
01:20:29,120 --> 01:20:27,389
for example with Roswell people would

1849
01:20:30,439 --> 01:20:29,130
love to say no to solve Roswell but know

1850
01:20:32,629 --> 01:20:30,449
what they're actually going it collected

1851
01:20:35,720 --> 01:20:32,639
a lot of interesting witness reports and

1852
01:20:37,790 --> 01:20:35,730
testimony the proof would be the craft

1853
01:20:39,919 --> 01:20:37,800
or the bodies or whatever and that's the

1854
01:20:42,200 --> 01:20:39,929
same with the contactee movement you

1855
01:20:44,060 --> 01:20:42,210
know there's no firm evidence that room

1856
01:20:47,270 --> 01:20:44,070
and bathroom ever met a physical space

1857
01:20:50,270 --> 01:20:47,280
or space woman named aura reigns there's

1858
01:20:52,970 --> 01:20:50,280
no physical evidence that George Adamski

1859
01:20:56,930 --> 01:20:52,980
ever met aliens as in the California

1860
01:20:59,870 --> 01:20:56,940
desert so I think that like all aspects

1861
01:21:02,390 --> 01:20:59,880
of the 14 world the UFO world we're

1862
01:21:06,109 --> 01:21:02,400
forced to go with what we have and most

1863
01:21:08,300 --> 01:21:06,119
of that is simply witness perception and

1864
01:21:09,530 --> 01:21:08,310
testimony and you know maybe it's always

1865
01:21:11,000 --> 01:21:09,540
going to be like that maybe there's

1866
01:21:13,520 --> 01:21:11,010
something about the phenomenon that

1867
01:21:15,859 --> 01:21:13,530
prevents us from ever getting too close

1868
01:21:20,089 --> 01:21:15,869
to it I think that also is a very good

1869
01:21:24,169 --> 01:21:20,099
point the proof is always lacking and

1870
01:21:28,189 --> 01:21:24,179
either that's an accident or it's a plan

1871
01:21:29,600 --> 01:21:28,199
of some sort that the alien entities or

1872
01:21:33,750 --> 01:21:29,610
whatever the hell

1873
01:21:36,780 --> 01:21:33,760
don't want us to be able to prove or

1874
01:21:39,210 --> 01:21:36,790
them and I remember I forget where this

1875
01:21:42,750 --> 01:21:39,220
happened it might have been years ago in

1876
01:21:47,310 --> 01:21:42,760
Europe but one of these creatures said

1877
01:21:50,370 --> 01:21:47,320
to the man who saw his little craft land

1878
01:21:53,880 --> 01:21:50,380
that this was not a contact each thing

1879
01:21:56,190 --> 01:21:53,890
was just my man perhaps a farmer who who

1880
01:22:00,360 --> 01:21:56,200
saw a craft land and the creature got

1881
01:22:02,910 --> 01:22:00,370
out and the creature said we want you to

1882
01:22:06,620 --> 01:22:02,920
believe in us but not too much

1883
01:22:09,450 --> 01:22:06,630
and I think that's very interesting

1884
01:22:11,180 --> 01:22:09,460
there's some germ of truth there yeah

1885
01:22:14,370 --> 01:22:11,190
that was actually have a Sherma the

1886
01:22:17,400 --> 01:22:14,380
policeman reserved oh I wasn't sure I

1887
01:22:19,140 --> 01:22:17,410
guess you're right boy Ankara and I got

1888
01:22:20,550 --> 01:22:19,150
a better grip on this than I do

1889
01:22:23,250 --> 01:22:20,560
yeah that's that's an interesting little

1890
01:22:25,380 --> 01:22:23,260
quotes you know the idea that there is

1891
01:22:27,330 --> 01:22:25,390
something to believe in but you know

1892
01:22:30,180 --> 01:22:27,340
what is it into what extension we

1893
01:22:33,180 --> 01:22:30,190
believe in it I think you know these are

1894
01:22:34,140 --> 01:22:33,190
all important factors to me where you

1895
01:22:35,970 --> 01:22:34,150
know as I said when I first got

1896
01:22:37,860 --> 01:22:35,980
interested in UFOs I thought when I was

1897
01:22:39,450 --> 01:22:37,870
a little kid you know teenage or

1898
01:22:42,270 --> 01:22:39,460
whatever I did think it was all very

1899
01:22:44,220 --> 01:22:42,280
much black and white that's you know the

1900
01:22:47,280 --> 01:22:44,230
aliens are coming we've got crashed UFOs

1901
01:22:49,470 --> 01:22:47,290
etc etc the more I looked into it as I

1902
01:22:52,980 --> 01:22:49,480
got older the more I saw parallels

1903
01:22:55,920 --> 01:22:52,990
between today's UFO movements and all

1904
01:22:57,810 --> 01:22:55,930
the subject of UFOs and you know things

1905
01:23:00,540 --> 01:22:57,820
like ferry encounters in the fifteen

1906
01:23:02,880 --> 01:23:00,550
hundreds or encounters angels and demons

1907
01:23:06,030 --> 01:23:02,890
two or three thousand years ago it's

1908
01:23:08,340 --> 01:23:06,040
just the motif that's changed the actual

1909
01:23:11,460 --> 01:23:08,350
actions and the experiences and the way

1910
01:23:13,650 --> 01:23:11,470
changes people that stayed the same it's

1911
01:23:16,620 --> 01:23:13,660
just the claim point of origin for these

1912
01:23:18,540 --> 01:23:16,630
beings as altered as we've altered kind

1913
01:23:21,420 --> 01:23:18,550
of like I guess John keels operation

1914
01:23:24,120 --> 01:23:21,430
Trojan horse that sort of thing yeah can

1915
01:23:27,510 --> 01:23:24,130
I tell my favorite George Adamski story

1916
01:23:31,050 --> 01:23:27,520
please I was on there longer Neville's

1917
01:23:35,190 --> 01:23:31,060
radio show twice I think with the danske

1918
01:23:38,010 --> 01:23:35,200
maybe about a year or so apart and long

1919
01:23:41,430 --> 01:23:38,020
johns show started at midnight and

1920
01:23:43,440 --> 01:23:41,440
5 or 5:30 in the morning so you can

1921
01:23:44,940 --> 01:23:43,450
imagine that not everybody that was

1922
01:23:48,090 --> 01:23:44,950
listening stayed awake for the whole

1923
01:23:51,600 --> 01:23:48,100
thing and obviously your ratings would

1924
01:23:54,650 --> 01:23:51,610
drop right off a cliff so to speak after

1925
01:23:57,120 --> 01:23:54,660
perhaps one o'clock and by - it's me and

1926
01:24:01,470 --> 01:23:57,130
not that many people aren't listening

1927
01:24:06,030 --> 01:24:01,480
anymore so when John had a guest such as

1928
01:24:09,080 --> 01:24:06,040
a dasky he would hog the mic for the

1929
01:24:12,300 --> 01:24:09,090
first hour interviewing the guests and

1930
01:24:14,850 --> 01:24:12,310
giving his own views about whatever he

1931
01:24:17,970 --> 01:24:14,860
wanted to say and by the time the panel

1932
01:24:19,980 --> 01:24:17,980
and I was always just a panelist not the

1933
01:24:22,410 --> 01:24:19,990
guest of honor but to get the background

1934
01:24:25,290 --> 01:24:22,420
people usually three or four of us

1935
01:24:27,660 --> 01:24:25,300
didn't get to say much of anything until

1936
01:24:31,020 --> 01:24:27,670
at least 1 or 1:30 in the morning so

1937
01:24:33,240 --> 01:24:31,030
when I finally got a chance to talk to a

1938
01:24:35,040 --> 01:24:33,250
- bi and I'm saying again I don't know

1939
01:24:38,910 --> 01:24:35,050
how many people actually heard this but

1940
01:24:42,240 --> 01:24:38,920
I had some questions in mind and one was

1941
01:24:46,170 --> 01:24:42,250
this I remembered that a danske had

1942
01:24:48,960 --> 01:24:46,180
often said 2 + 2 or 5 which doesn't seem

1943
01:24:52,850 --> 01:24:48,970
to make any sense but what he supposedly

1944
01:24:56,940 --> 01:24:52,860
meant was that there is a unit of energy

1945
01:24:59,160 --> 01:24:56,950
that is needed in order to add two and

1946
01:25:02,700 --> 01:24:59,170
two again that makes no sense of year

1947
01:25:07,020 --> 01:25:02,710
but that's what he said so when I had my

1948
01:25:09,360 --> 01:25:07,030
chance on that radio show I asked

1949
01:25:13,320 --> 01:25:09,370
advance key tell me George

1950
01:25:16,290 --> 01:25:13,330
how much is 2 + 2 and this is the answer

1951
01:25:19,680 --> 01:25:16,300
that a handful of listeners must have

1952
01:25:22,740 --> 01:25:19,690
heard he said it can be either four five

1953
01:25:26,370 --> 01:25:22,750
or six depending on the circumstance and

1954
01:25:28,650 --> 01:25:26,380
I figured that's as far as I can go with

1955
01:25:30,630 --> 01:25:28,660
this so I didn't I deliberately didn't

1956
01:25:32,840 --> 01:25:30,640
ask any follow-up questions I thought

1957
01:25:36,500 --> 01:25:32,850
well that's it if you can accept that

1958
01:25:38,850 --> 01:25:36,510
you're there because imagine if real

1959
01:25:40,680 --> 01:25:38,860
mathematics went that way you couldn't

1960
01:25:43,290 --> 01:25:40,690
build anything you couldn't have a

1961
01:25:44,570 --> 01:25:43,300
bridge you couldn't have anything that

1962
01:25:47,840 --> 01:25:44,580
you can imagine that stone

1963
01:25:50,030 --> 01:25:47,850
with math there was a question as to

1964
01:25:55,160 --> 01:25:50,040
what the value of each number would be

1965
01:25:56,960 --> 01:25:55,170
so I liked his answer very much well at

1966
01:26:00,320 --> 01:25:56,970
least he has a lot of flexibility in

1967
01:26:02,720 --> 01:26:00,330
that answer well yes he must have either

1968
01:26:05,300 --> 01:26:02,730
been asked the same question before or

1969
01:26:10,070 --> 01:26:05,310
he was very quick on the draw I don't

1970
01:26:12,110 --> 01:26:10,080
know well you know I never laughed

1971
01:26:13,850 --> 01:26:12,120
because you know if I laugh too much you

1972
01:26:24,810 --> 01:26:13,860
know maybe I'll just you know keel over

1973
01:26:30,760 --> 01:26:28,240
for 58 years fate has provided true

1974
01:26:33,160 --> 01:26:30,770
reports of the strange and unknown fate

1975
01:26:35,020 --> 01:26:33,170
brings you the latest in all aspects of

1976
01:26:38,560 --> 01:26:35,030
the paranormal like angels and miracles

1977
01:26:41,020 --> 01:26:38,570
psychic phenomena ghosts UFOs and much

1978
01:26:43,900 --> 01:26:41,030
much more to receive your complimentary

1979
01:26:47,470 --> 01:26:43,910
fate magazine call now at one eight

1980
01:26:51,250 --> 01:26:47,480
hundred seven two eight two seven three

1981
01:26:54,340 --> 01:26:51,260
oh or visit their website at WWF at mag

1982
01:27:00,700 --> 01:26:54,350
com that's one eight hundred seven two

1983
01:27:04,060 --> 01:27:00,710
eight two seven three zero or WWF a TEM

1984
01:27:10,850 --> 01:27:04,070
AG calm what are you waiting for your

1985
01:27:16,690 --> 01:27:13,850
this is the bear guest you never know

1986
01:27:19,810 --> 01:27:16,700
what's gonna mess

1987
01:27:22,690 --> 01:27:19,820
[Music]

1988
01:27:24,820 --> 01:27:22,700
we have Nick Redfern author of

1989
01:27:25,720 --> 01:27:24,830
contactees a history of alien human

1990
01:27:28,240 --> 01:27:25,730
interaction

1991
01:27:29,920 --> 01:27:28,250
Jim Mosley editor of saucer smear we're

1992
01:27:32,710 --> 01:27:29,930
talking about the contactee movement

1993
01:27:36,520 --> 01:27:32,720
from the early days of the UFO field to

1994
01:27:39,550 --> 01:27:36,530
the present day now as we mentioned

1995
01:27:41,740 --> 01:27:39,560
earlier Nick the abduction scenario

1996
01:27:44,500 --> 01:27:41,750
seems to be more a simultaneous thing

1997
01:27:46,960 --> 01:27:44,510
rather than a replacement for contactees

1998
01:27:49,120 --> 01:27:46,970
but is there any bridge between the two

1999
01:27:51,580 --> 01:27:49,130
the missing time effect things like that

2000
01:27:54,130 --> 01:27:51,590
well you know I mean something about you

2001
01:27:57,490 --> 01:27:54,140
that the Antonio Villas Boas case from

2002
01:28:00,940 --> 01:27:57,500
Brazil sort of straddled the contactee

2003
01:28:03,340 --> 01:28:00,950
movements and the abduction movements in

2004
01:28:05,860 --> 01:28:03,350
the sense the being this woman that

2005
01:28:10,570 --> 01:28:05,870
Antonio Villas Boas supposedly met out

2006
01:28:13,780 --> 01:28:10,580
in Brazil in 1957 I think it was or 1959

2007
01:28:16,690 --> 01:28:13,790
I think that she was sort of very human

2008
01:28:18,910 --> 01:28:16,700
looking but he was treated like basic

2009
01:28:21,660 --> 01:28:18,920
like a lab rat so in other words he had

2010
01:28:24,310 --> 01:28:21,670
some of the motifs of the abduction

2011
01:28:26,560 --> 01:28:24,320
scenario and other motifs from the

2012
01:28:28,930 --> 01:28:26,570
contactee world so I think in that

2013
01:28:31,810 --> 01:28:28,940
respect you know you could argue that

2014
01:28:33,790 --> 01:28:31,820
the villas-boas case had parallels we

2015
01:28:36,730 --> 01:28:33,800
both and if you look at also the Betty

2016
01:28:39,250 --> 01:28:36,740
and Barney Hill case of 1961 you go back

2017
01:28:41,350 --> 01:28:39,260
and read their original accounts and the

2018
01:28:43,420 --> 01:28:41,360
interrupted journey the creatures that

2019
01:28:46,330 --> 01:28:43,430
the hills claims have met they weren't

2020
01:28:49,060 --> 01:28:46,340
the sort of three-foot-tall very spindly

2021
01:28:51,730 --> 01:28:49,070
insect like greys of today's world they

2022
01:28:54,010 --> 01:28:51,740
were like five foot tall they had pupae

2023
01:28:57,250 --> 01:28:54,020
eyes with pupils they were wearing like

2024
01:28:59,830 --> 01:28:57,260
skull caps and you know they look more

2025
01:29:01,720 --> 01:28:59,840
human-like and again you know could we

2026
01:29:04,780 --> 01:29:01,730
argue that that was sort of like a cross

2027
01:29:06,100 --> 01:29:04,790
between the two phenomena I think you

2028
01:29:06,940 --> 01:29:06,110
know there is an argument to be made for

2029
01:29:11,110 --> 01:29:06,950
that as well

2030
01:29:13,570 --> 01:29:11,120
in terms of putting an entire picture on

2031
01:29:16,840 --> 01:29:13,580
where this stands in UFO research should

2032
01:29:19,120 --> 01:29:16,850
we treat the traditional contact D with

2033
01:29:20,890 --> 01:29:19,130
any seriousness at all I mean it's a fun

2034
01:29:26,460 --> 01:29:20,900
story we're enjoying it we're having a

2035
01:29:30,820 --> 01:29:26,470
good time how do we take it seriously I

2036
01:29:32,609 --> 01:29:30,830
don't take you know old seriously and

2037
01:29:35,580 --> 01:29:32,619
most of all

2038
01:29:39,540 --> 01:29:35,590
as we've been covering in the last few

2039
01:29:43,049 --> 01:29:39,550
minutes since none of these contactees

2040
01:29:46,770 --> 01:29:43,059
have any proof whatsoever and you could

2041
01:29:49,350 --> 01:29:46,780
also say that goes with other UFO cases

2042
01:29:52,439 --> 01:29:49,360
too it all depends what you define proof

2043
01:29:56,969 --> 01:29:52,449
as but when you have stories that are

2044
01:30:00,239 --> 01:29:56,979
really no more than then hearsay in the

2045
01:30:02,489 --> 01:30:00,249
sense of evidence then it doesn't really

2046
01:30:05,009 --> 01:30:02,499
matter how seriously you take the money

2047
01:30:06,839 --> 01:30:05,019
they're just like folklore there's just

2048
01:30:08,609 --> 01:30:06,849
nothing there yeah I would agree with

2049
01:30:10,139 --> 01:30:08,619
that I think the one thing I would say

2050
01:30:11,399 --> 01:30:10,149
is that you know that what I try to

2051
01:30:14,339 --> 01:30:11,409
point out in the book is that I think

2052
01:30:16,049 --> 01:30:14,349
there are some anomalies that lead us to

2053
01:30:18,119 --> 01:30:16,059
believe that or lead me to believe that

2054
01:30:20,040 --> 01:30:18,129
it's not just as black and white as they

2055
01:30:23,639 --> 01:30:20,050
were hoaxes or not you know that the

2056
01:30:25,830 --> 01:30:23,649
links with the FBI communists angle LSD

2057
01:30:29,009 --> 01:30:25,840
and mind-control I do think there's a

2058
01:30:31,229 --> 01:30:29,019
lot more going on but what for me leads

2059
01:30:33,810 --> 01:30:31,239
me to sort of take the subject seriously

2060
01:30:37,139 --> 01:30:33,820
in terms of each significance is the

2061
01:30:38,729 --> 01:30:37,149
sheer overwhelming effect he had on

2062
01:30:40,919 --> 01:30:38,739
people I mean to give you a classic

2063
01:30:43,500 --> 01:30:40,929
example you know I speak at a lot of UFO

2064
01:30:46,649 --> 01:30:43,510
conferences today's UFO conferences

2065
01:30:48,859 --> 01:30:46,659
attract maybe 300 people at most and

2066
01:30:50,939 --> 01:30:48,869
that's a good sized audience the

2067
01:30:52,529 --> 01:30:50,949
organizers are always complaining you

2068
01:30:53,819 --> 01:30:52,539
know this year's got to be the last one

2069
01:30:55,949 --> 01:30:53,829
because they're not making any money

2070
01:30:58,319 --> 01:30:55,959
people aren't coming along well if you

2071
01:31:00,389 --> 01:30:58,329
go back to the fifties at a giant rock

2072
01:31:03,479 --> 01:31:00,399
you know Van Tassel was getting fired

2073
01:31:05,909 --> 01:31:03,489
audiences of five at six thousand you

2074
01:31:08,189 --> 01:31:05,919
know no one in the UFO field can compete

2075
01:31:10,770 --> 01:31:08,199
with one of them was that there was an

2076
01:31:12,899 --> 01:31:10,780
inference though well first of all I

2077
01:31:15,089 --> 01:31:12,909
think after the first year he only got a

2078
01:31:16,799 --> 01:31:15,099
couple of thousand likes I heard that

2079
01:31:19,259 --> 01:31:16,809
the first year he had five or ten

2080
01:31:21,779 --> 01:31:19,269
thousand but I was not there I don't I

2081
01:31:24,359 --> 01:31:21,789
don't know but there was more to it than

2082
01:31:27,540 --> 01:31:24,369
that because you didn't even have to be

2083
01:31:30,810 --> 01:31:27,550
interested in saucers to want to go to

2084
01:31:34,199 --> 01:31:30,820
giant rock I mean it was a beautiful

2085
01:31:37,169 --> 01:31:34,209
experience as far as nature and scenery

2086
01:31:39,239 --> 01:31:37,179
is concerned and you could go out there

2087
01:31:41,580 --> 01:31:39,249
and do anything that you wanted you

2088
01:31:43,420 --> 01:31:41,590
didn't have to listen to the speakers

2089
01:31:45,970 --> 01:31:43,430
and most of all they

2090
01:31:48,280 --> 01:31:45,980
no entrance fee and I think that makes a

2091
01:31:50,530 --> 01:31:48,290
whole lot of difference I mean I talked

2092
01:31:53,170 --> 01:31:50,540
to different people of course with the

2093
01:31:54,940 --> 01:31:53,180
times that I was out there and some some

2094
01:31:57,280 --> 01:31:54,950
of the people were on a different ticket

2095
01:32:01,030 --> 01:31:57,290
I had nothing whatever to do with sauces

2096
01:32:04,000 --> 01:32:01,040
some of them seem pretty normal in

2097
01:32:06,880 --> 01:32:04,010
general and you know there were just all

2098
01:32:10,360 --> 01:32:06,890
kinds of people but again the most

2099
01:32:14,200 --> 01:32:10,370
defining thing is no fee and that's what

2100
01:32:16,360 --> 01:32:14,210
I was saying before he rent a soul might

2101
01:32:18,370 --> 01:32:16,370
have thought of some way he could have

2102
01:32:20,380 --> 01:32:18,380
charged for parking I guess even though

2103
01:32:22,630 --> 01:32:20,390
he didn't own the land I don't think I

2104
01:32:25,450 --> 01:32:22,640
mean there's many ways he could have

2105
01:32:27,820 --> 01:32:25,460
exploited this and didn't these days I

2106
01:32:30,820 --> 01:32:27,830
think more and more especially in the

2107
01:32:33,970 --> 01:32:30,830
recession that we have now people don't

2108
01:32:37,000 --> 01:32:33,980
feel it's worth the money to go to a

2109
01:32:38,860 --> 01:32:37,010
salsa convention first you usually get

2110
01:32:41,640 --> 01:32:38,870
the people that have said pretty much

2111
01:32:46,240 --> 01:32:41,650
the same thing many times before

2112
01:32:48,640 --> 01:32:46,250
previous conventions and you know or you

2113
01:32:51,340 --> 01:32:48,650
could buy yeah you can buy a tape of it

2114
01:32:54,940 --> 01:32:51,350
and listen to it much cheaper do you

2115
01:32:56,650 --> 01:32:54,950
agree yeah I do agree I say and I think

2116
01:32:58,960 --> 01:32:56,660
you know that's an important point is

2117
01:33:01,030 --> 01:32:58,970
the fact that you know as Jim points out

2118
01:33:03,310 --> 01:33:01,040
but the subject back then was very

2119
01:33:05,650 --> 01:33:03,320
different you know the nature of the

2120
01:33:08,500 --> 01:33:05,660
conferences and the where they were held

2121
01:33:10,150 --> 01:33:08,510
was different the free entry and things

2122
01:33:12,520 --> 01:33:10,160
like that and I think today's today's

2123
01:33:15,490 --> 01:33:12,530
ufology has become unfortunately more

2124
01:33:17,020 --> 01:33:15,500
based around the commercialization of

2125
01:33:18,700 --> 01:33:17,030
the subject which isn't a bad thing in

2126
01:33:20,380 --> 01:33:18,710
terms of because it brings more

2127
01:33:22,540 --> 01:33:20,390
attention to the subjects of people and

2128
01:33:24,610 --> 01:33:22,550
it gets the word out more you know I do

2129
01:33:27,220 --> 01:33:24,620
think back in those days back in the

2130
01:33:29,200 --> 01:33:27,230
fifties what the contact a movement

2131
01:33:32,950 --> 01:33:29,210
achieved which unfortunately no one can

2132
01:33:35,230 --> 01:33:32,960
achieve in today's world is to provoke

2133
01:33:37,960 --> 01:33:35,240
the creation of a huge movement of

2134
01:33:39,610 --> 01:33:37,970
followers and people who you know board

2135
01:33:42,670 --> 01:33:39,620
the books and went to the conference's

2136
01:33:44,710 --> 01:33:42,680
and he really became almost like a like

2137
01:33:47,830 --> 01:33:44,720
an early version of you know the flower

2138
01:33:49,420 --> 01:33:47,840
power thing in the 1960s promoting you

2139
01:33:50,500 --> 01:33:49,430
know alternative belief systems

2140
01:33:52,919 --> 01:33:50,510
lifestyles

2141
01:33:57,330 --> 01:33:52,929
you know everybody hanging out together

2142
01:33:59,700 --> 01:33:57,340
and I think ufology today is fighting

2143
01:34:01,500 --> 01:33:59,710
and struggling to stay alive and it's

2144
01:34:04,620 --> 01:34:01,510
kind of lost its way because he doesn't

2145
01:34:06,360 --> 01:34:04,630
know what to do now whether or not

2146
01:34:08,340 --> 01:34:06,370
people agree that the concert tees are

2147
01:34:11,160 --> 01:34:08,350
doing the right thing or not the fact is

2148
01:34:14,340 --> 01:34:11,170
that they achieve the position I think

2149
01:34:15,840 --> 01:34:14,350
in the UFO world that really whether

2150
01:34:18,330 --> 01:34:15,850
people agree with their stories are not

2151
01:34:22,080 --> 01:34:18,340
as he never actually been eclipsed in

2152
01:34:24,570 --> 01:34:22,090
terms of its sheer size following and

2153
01:34:26,430 --> 01:34:24,580
effects the transformative effective yet

2154
01:34:28,979 --> 01:34:26,440
on people's lives well you know there's

2155
01:34:32,270 --> 01:34:28,989
another factor too I mean if we say that

2156
01:34:35,520 --> 01:34:32,280
the modern flying saucer hero began in

2157
01:34:37,620 --> 01:34:35,530
1947 which is the year naturally in

2158
01:34:40,620 --> 01:34:37,630
Roswell and the year Kenneth Arnold

2159
01:34:43,050 --> 01:34:40,630
years ago we always thought of Arnold as

2160
01:34:45,990 --> 01:34:43,060
the beginning but now it's Roswell that

2161
01:34:49,410 --> 01:34:46,000
only about ten days apart I think but

2162
01:34:54,149 --> 01:34:49,420
the thing is we're going on now for over

2163
01:34:57,630 --> 01:34:54,159
60 years and nothing has improved we

2164
01:35:00,090 --> 01:34:57,640
don't have proof yet we're nowhere near

2165
01:35:03,930 --> 01:35:00,100
it and a lot of people get frustrated

2166
01:35:06,450 --> 01:35:03,940
and give it up and want to join some

2167
01:35:09,479 --> 01:35:06,460
other movement where you have more hope

2168
01:35:11,640 --> 01:35:09,489
of actually getting somewhere I think

2169
01:35:14,760 --> 01:35:11,650
there's a great deal of frustration and

2170
01:35:18,030 --> 01:35:14,770
just very briefly and I think that most

2171
01:35:20,459 --> 01:35:18,040
people are correctly abandoning the

2172
01:35:22,950 --> 01:35:20,469
extra-terrestrial theory not most people

2173
01:35:25,740 --> 01:35:22,960
but many of the more intellectual people

2174
01:35:28,580 --> 01:35:25,750
and I think more so in England and here

2175
01:35:31,320 --> 01:35:28,590
because there is more intellectual

2176
01:35:34,680 --> 01:35:31,330
activity in that since anything within

2177
01:35:37,380 --> 01:35:34,690
here but they're thinking of alternate

2178
01:35:41,130 --> 01:35:37,390
theories because they're just getting

2179
01:35:44,189 --> 01:35:41,140
nowhere at all with that really do you

2180
01:35:45,630 --> 01:35:44,199
think that's about right yeah I mean one

2181
01:35:48,270 --> 01:35:45,640
of the things I've found I think a lot

2182
01:35:51,360 --> 01:35:48,280
of people who enter the UFO subject go

2183
01:35:53,100 --> 01:35:51,370
one of two ways they either go the way I

2184
01:35:55,709 --> 01:35:53,110
did and I think you've got a lot of

2185
01:35:57,620 --> 01:35:55,719
people like Greg Bishop has where you

2186
01:36:00,720 --> 01:35:57,630
initially come into thinking it is all

2187
01:36:02,879 --> 01:36:00,730
UFOs nuts and bolts aliens and then you

2188
01:36:05,440 --> 01:36:02,889
begin to realize that it's really a very

2189
01:36:08,830 --> 01:36:05,450
old phenomenon that seems to

2190
01:36:11,080 --> 01:36:08,840
manipulate us as much as show itself to

2191
01:36:14,130 --> 01:36:11,090
us and there seems to be a high degree

2192
01:36:16,750 --> 01:36:14,140
of trickery and elusiveness involved and

2193
01:36:18,520 --> 01:36:16,760
in terms of the straightforward

2194
01:36:20,740 --> 01:36:18,530
extra-terrestrial hypothesis a lot of

2195
01:36:22,900 --> 01:36:20,750
material it comes across as very absurd

2196
01:36:24,610 --> 01:36:22,910
and illogical you keep trying to apply

2197
01:36:27,010 --> 01:36:24,620
to that theory and so a lot of people

2198
01:36:29,800 --> 01:36:27,020
change their views as I've done other

2199
01:36:32,950 --> 01:36:29,810
people become rigidly stuck within the a

2200
01:36:35,560 --> 01:36:32,960
th extra-terrestrial hypothesis I think

2201
01:36:38,560 --> 01:36:35,570
because they've been invested in it for

2202
01:36:40,180 --> 01:36:38,570
so long that it would be almost like you

2203
01:36:43,330 --> 01:36:40,190
know a death knell to them to try and

2204
01:36:46,030 --> 01:36:43,340
get away from it and so I feel that they

2205
01:36:48,160 --> 01:36:46,040
try and uphold it because that's all

2206
01:36:51,580 --> 01:36:48,170
that they've ever known and to sort of

2207
01:36:53,920 --> 01:36:51,590
turn away from it would be seen as you

2208
01:36:55,960 --> 01:36:53,930
know affecting their credibility so they

2209
01:36:59,200 --> 01:36:55,970
do whatever they can hang on to it and

2210
01:37:01,090 --> 01:36:59,210
it becomes almost like a cosmic religion

2211
01:37:03,970 --> 01:37:01,100
it becomes a beliefs it's all right so

2212
01:37:06,670 --> 01:37:03,980
really what I like about you NIC is if I

2213
01:37:09,160 --> 01:37:06,680
have interpreted it correctly you

2214
01:37:11,320 --> 01:37:09,170
written quite a large number of books

2215
01:37:14,350 --> 01:37:11,330
and some of them might even be

2216
01:37:17,980 --> 01:37:14,360
contradictory to each other when you get

2217
01:37:21,910 --> 01:37:17,990
on a subject you exhausted as best you

2218
01:37:24,760 --> 01:37:21,920
can but you don't personally have to

2219
01:37:27,430 --> 01:37:24,770
believe your own book in the sense that

2220
01:37:30,340 --> 01:37:27,440
it's the only answer there might not be

2221
01:37:32,920 --> 01:37:30,350
any alternative answer you don't go that

2222
01:37:35,350 --> 01:37:32,930
so and I think that's a perfectly good

2223
01:37:38,350 --> 01:37:35,360
correction I think that's why if I may

2224
01:37:40,270 --> 01:37:38,360
say so you you're probably number one in

2225
01:37:42,220 --> 01:37:40,280
the field right now oh well thank you

2226
01:37:44,320 --> 01:37:42,230
Jim thanks but I wouldn't I wouldn't go

2227
01:37:46,300 --> 01:37:44,330
so far as to say I don't believe what's

2228
01:37:49,300 --> 01:37:46,310
in the books what I would say is that if

2229
01:37:51,730 --> 01:37:49,310
I published something today and five

2230
01:37:54,310 --> 01:37:51,740
years from now something comes out that

2231
01:37:57,820 --> 01:37:54,320
totally contradicts it you know I don't

2232
01:38:00,700 --> 01:37:57,830
have a problem with saying okay I got it

2233
01:38:02,650 --> 01:38:00,710
wrong because I think what we all have

2234
01:38:05,020 --> 01:38:02,660
to remember is in the UFO subject the

2235
01:38:07,660 --> 01:38:05,030
you still stands for unidentified it

2236
01:38:09,250 --> 01:38:07,670
doesn't stand for alien spacecraft or

2237
01:38:11,830 --> 01:38:09,260
time travels or whatever we don't know

2238
01:38:14,890 --> 01:38:11,840
what these things are so I don't feel

2239
01:38:16,299 --> 01:38:14,900
the need to be held to a particular

2240
01:38:19,059 --> 01:38:16,309
belief system

2241
01:38:20,619 --> 01:38:19,069
because that colors your views what I

2242
01:38:22,959 --> 01:38:20,629
would do what I try and do is write

2243
01:38:25,959 --> 01:38:22,969
something and come to a conclusion and

2244
01:38:27,609 --> 01:38:25,969
hopefully I've got it right but if I got

2245
01:38:29,889 --> 01:38:27,619
it wrong you know I'll be the first to

2246
01:38:32,079 --> 01:38:29,899
say so because I don't feel an emotional

2247
01:38:35,739 --> 01:38:32,089
need you know to believe aliens crashed

2248
01:38:37,179 --> 01:38:35,749
at Roswell or ABC or whatever you know I

2249
01:38:39,219 --> 01:38:37,189
think we just need to go where the

2250
01:38:41,500 --> 01:38:39,229
evidence goes and our search might

2251
01:38:44,129 --> 01:38:41,510
change as time progresses you know God

2252
01:38:47,049 --> 01:38:44,139
Vince goes this takes us to another

2253
01:38:50,949 --> 01:38:47,059
subject which of course is deception

2254
01:38:53,079 --> 01:38:50,959
trickery so alien beings come to George

2255
01:38:55,179 --> 01:38:53,089
Adamski maybe they didn't will come to

2256
01:38:58,389 --> 01:38:55,189
anyone say we're from Venus because in

2257
01:39:00,849 --> 01:38:58,399
those days people expected aliens to be

2258
01:39:02,939 --> 01:39:00,859
on Venus or Mars and that's not true of

2259
01:39:05,709 --> 01:39:02,949
course and they don't even look like

2260
01:39:08,589 --> 01:39:05,719
blond-haired humans but they're being

2261
01:39:10,569 --> 01:39:08,599
deceived now that comes to the same

2262
01:39:13,149 --> 01:39:10,579
conclusion that you might come with

2263
01:39:15,270 --> 01:39:13,159
these abductions that if aliens were any

2264
01:39:17,439 --> 01:39:15,280
force out there wherever they are are

2265
01:39:19,719 --> 01:39:17,449
performing these abductions or

2266
01:39:21,399 --> 01:39:19,729
influencing people to believe there are

2267
01:39:23,199 --> 01:39:21,409
abductions you're not seeing what's

2268
01:39:24,609 --> 01:39:23,209
really happening you're being deceived

2269
01:39:27,099 --> 01:39:24,619
you're being fooled what do you think

2270
01:39:28,689 --> 01:39:27,109
about that Nick well yeah I think you

2271
01:39:30,729 --> 01:39:28,699
know there's no doubt but if you look at

2272
01:39:32,979 --> 01:39:30,739
the UFO subject there are deep elements

2273
01:39:36,099 --> 01:39:32,989
that seem to be like stage-managed

2274
01:39:37,209 --> 01:39:36,109
trickery I mean as you will know you go

2275
01:39:38,649 --> 01:39:37,219
back then you'll know as well if you go

2276
01:39:41,379 --> 01:39:38,659
back to the fifties they used to be

2277
01:39:44,199 --> 01:39:41,389
classic reports where people would see

2278
01:39:46,959 --> 01:39:44,209
aliens taking soil samples now it was

2279
01:39:49,809 --> 01:39:46,969
almost to me it comes across like that

2280
01:39:51,909 --> 01:39:49,819
these are being staged for people to see

2281
01:39:53,520 --> 01:39:51,919
them and I think it was being done to

2282
01:39:55,750 --> 01:39:53,530
instill the idea that they were

2283
01:39:57,669 --> 01:39:55,760
extraterrestrial scientists visiting the

2284
01:40:01,179 --> 01:39:57,679
planet but in these kind of cases

2285
01:40:03,520 --> 01:40:01,189
happened so often that it was almost as

2286
01:40:04,540 --> 01:40:03,530
if it would be too inconceivable to

2287
01:40:06,849 --> 01:40:04,550
think that people would just keep

2288
01:40:08,709 --> 01:40:06,859
stumbling across aliens taking soil

2289
01:40:11,199 --> 01:40:08,719
samples that it was almost as if the

2290
01:40:13,899 --> 01:40:11,209
phenomena existed to be seen and it

2291
01:40:15,040 --> 01:40:13,909
needed to be seen to exist I think you

2292
01:40:17,049 --> 01:40:15,050
know there's an argument for that as

2293
01:40:18,609 --> 01:40:17,059
well you know and the idea that the

2294
01:40:20,199 --> 01:40:18,619
aliens are always keen to tell us they

2295
01:40:22,000 --> 01:40:20,209
come from this place or they come from

2296
01:40:24,870 --> 01:40:22,010
that place it's almost as if they're

2297
01:40:27,990 --> 01:40:24,880
trying too hard to convince us

2298
01:40:30,390 --> 01:40:28,000
alien and maybe they are but to me there

2299
01:40:32,040 --> 01:40:30,400
seems to be a high degree not just

2300
01:40:35,340 --> 01:40:32,050
within the UFO subject but a whole range

2301
01:40:37,919 --> 01:40:35,350
of paranormal subjects where trickery is

2302
01:40:39,959 --> 01:40:37,929
at the heart of what's going on and I

2303
01:40:42,090 --> 01:40:39,969
bet people unfortunately take the events

2304
01:40:45,660 --> 01:40:42,100
at face value well you know there

2305
01:40:49,169 --> 01:40:45,670
there's another problem too not only the

2306
01:40:51,990 --> 01:40:49,179
contactees but really all of the UFO

2307
01:40:56,790 --> 01:40:52,000
sightings that have any detail to them

2308
01:40:59,370 --> 01:40:56,800
each incident is different each time the

2309
01:41:02,430 --> 01:40:59,380
craft is seen it's different each time

2310
01:41:05,310 --> 01:41:02,440
there's a message from the so-called

2311
01:41:08,419 --> 01:41:05,320
aliens it's not the same as anybody

2312
01:41:11,700 --> 01:41:08,429
else's message so if there's no

2313
01:41:13,560 --> 01:41:11,710
identical thread running through all of

2314
01:41:16,410 --> 01:41:13,570
this stuff but it's another reason that

2315
01:41:19,260 --> 01:41:16,420
the cynics and the bunkers will say well

2316
01:41:21,810 --> 01:41:19,270
it's all nonsense because if you're

2317
01:41:23,760 --> 01:41:21,820
looking at an airplane a normal airplane

2318
01:41:27,149 --> 01:41:23,770
let's say you can see it from different

2319
01:41:29,760 --> 01:41:27,159
angles but you the more times you see it

2320
01:41:33,600 --> 01:41:29,770
the more easily you'll be able to draw

2321
01:41:35,610 --> 01:41:33,610
exactly what the core phenomenon so to

2322
01:41:39,090 --> 01:41:35,620
speak is that that doesn't seem to be

2323
01:41:41,689 --> 01:41:39,100
true at all the saucers it's chaos and

2324
01:41:44,250 --> 01:41:41,699
unique events and that's very

2325
01:41:45,600 --> 01:41:44,260
discouraging to a lot of people well you

2326
01:41:48,450 --> 01:41:45,610
know one of the things that people might

2327
01:41:50,430 --> 01:41:48,460
argue with though is that you're seeing

2328
01:41:52,590 --> 01:41:50,440
something that you've got no warning

2329
01:41:55,649 --> 01:41:52,600
about sudden leave comes there and if

2330
01:41:58,740 --> 01:41:55,659
you put 10 people in a room and present

2331
01:42:00,200 --> 01:41:58,750
some sudden unexpected peculiar event

2332
01:42:03,270 --> 01:42:00,210
and they do this in law school I think

2333
01:42:06,330 --> 01:42:03,280
you would get 10 different opinions of

2334
01:42:08,280 --> 01:42:06,340
what exactly they saw Nick yeah you're

2335
01:42:09,780 --> 01:42:08,290
quite right I mean you know it's like

2336
01:42:11,970 --> 01:42:09,790
people talk about car accidents

2337
01:42:13,709 --> 01:42:11,980
everybody has their own opinion on what

2338
01:42:16,260 --> 01:42:13,719
they saw and of course if it's a

2339
01:42:18,750 --> 01:42:16,270
stressful events what a car accident can

2340
01:42:20,850 --> 01:42:18,760
be your minds in a world and you don't

2341
01:42:22,649 --> 01:42:20,860
necessarily register everything that

2342
01:42:25,050 --> 01:42:22,659
happened and afterwards you know you

2343
01:42:26,700 --> 01:42:25,060
mind picks up on things that you forgot

2344
01:42:28,919 --> 01:42:26,710
about or they were blank from your mind

2345
01:42:31,140 --> 01:42:28,929
and I think that's an important factor

2346
01:42:32,220 --> 01:42:31,150
to remembering any any sort of

2347
01:42:34,200 --> 01:42:32,230
experience there

2348
01:42:37,560 --> 01:42:34,210
sort of challenges the mind of the

2349
01:42:39,660 --> 01:42:37,570
person but in saying that you know Jim's

2350
01:42:41,430 --> 01:42:39,670
quite right that's you know that all the

2351
01:42:43,830 --> 01:42:41,440
lobby's case is so different I mean

2352
01:42:45,420 --> 01:42:43,840
other than one or two photographs you

2353
01:42:47,729 --> 01:42:45,430
look at all the photographs of alleged

2354
01:42:49,860 --> 01:42:47,739
UFOs they're all different a lot of em

2355
01:42:51,390 --> 01:42:49,870
may be saucer shaped or whatever but

2356
01:42:53,820 --> 01:42:51,400
there are subtle differences it's almost

2357
01:42:55,680 --> 01:42:53,830
as if every alien has ever come to the

2358
01:42:58,950 --> 01:42:55,690
planet it's got his own custom design

2359
01:43:01,500 --> 01:42:58,960
craft well maybe that's part of what it

2360
01:43:03,960 --> 01:43:01,510
is you see the other worlds what they

2361
01:43:04,500 --> 01:43:03,970
can do is alter themselves in any way

2362
01:43:08,100 --> 01:43:04,510
they want

2363
01:43:09,780 --> 01:43:08,110
I'm not no no Jean you can alter

2364
01:43:12,380 --> 01:43:09,790
yourself any way you want

2365
01:43:15,570 --> 01:43:12,390
I don't think they can well therefore

2366
01:43:18,840 --> 01:43:15,580
why did you alter yourself Jim the way

2367
01:43:23,040 --> 01:43:18,850
you did I don't know but I'll just as a

2368
01:43:26,790 --> 01:43:23,050
and one more thing to this in science

2369
01:43:30,690 --> 01:43:26,800
obviously you have an experiment or you

2370
01:43:33,360 --> 01:43:30,700
have a phenomena and you can duplicate

2371
01:43:36,030 --> 01:43:33,370
it under control conditions and that's

2372
01:43:38,729 --> 01:43:36,040
what the whole thing is about something

2373
01:43:41,250 --> 01:43:38,739
happens you duplicated other scientists

2374
01:43:42,930 --> 01:43:41,260
and other labs and you know the parts of

2375
01:43:45,840 --> 01:43:42,940
the country or other parts of the world

2376
01:43:48,240 --> 01:43:45,850
when they read the write-up of the

2377
01:43:50,040 --> 01:43:48,250
experiment as they can do the same thing

2378
01:43:54,180 --> 01:43:50,050
themselves and it will come out the same

2379
01:43:57,630 --> 01:43:54,190
way with saucers not only each that is

2380
01:44:01,290 --> 01:43:57,640
unique in its details but as you said

2381
01:44:04,500 --> 01:44:01,300
gene we don't know when and where these

2382
01:44:07,410 --> 01:44:04,510
things are going to happen and most of

2383
01:44:11,520 --> 01:44:07,420
all it cannot be duplicated you can't

2384
01:44:13,800 --> 01:44:11,530
just do it again the same way and gain

2385
01:44:16,410 --> 01:44:13,810
anything by that because it's impossible

2386
01:44:20,629 --> 01:44:16,420
it's a unique event

2387
01:44:23,640 --> 01:44:20,639
[Music]

2388
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2399
01:44:46,979 --> 01:44:45,219
primary focus because your support means

2400
01:44:48,810 --> 01:44:46,989
so much to us if you'd like to learn

2401
01:44:50,160 --> 01:44:48,820
more please visit us at Radio

2402
01:44:52,319 --> 01:44:50,170
namecheap.com

2403
01:44:54,240 --> 01:44:52,329
for web hosting and domain name specials

2404
01:44:59,790 --> 01:44:54,250
you can also follow us on twitter at

2405
01:45:01,919 --> 01:44:59,800
twitter.com/zeromd bars on facebook at

2406
01:45:05,760 --> 01:45:01,929
facebook.com slash name's Cheuk see you

2407
01:45:07,859 --> 01:45:05,770
online hi this is 8 Pope's you're

2408
01:45:11,879 --> 01:45:07,869
listening to the parrot talk with Jean

2409
01:45:13,979 --> 01:45:11,889
Steinberg and David B at me we're

2410
01:45:16,649 --> 01:45:13,989
talking to Jim Mosely editor of saucer

2411
01:45:19,020 --> 01:45:16,659
smear our co-host is Nick Redfern author

2412
01:45:21,240 --> 01:45:19,030
of contactees a history of alien human

2413
01:45:23,280 --> 01:45:21,250
interaction this also when we're getting

2414
01:45:25,080 --> 01:45:23,290
to the final stage of this show this

2415
01:45:28,260 --> 01:45:25,090
also takes us to the possibility here

2416
01:45:31,220 --> 01:45:28,270
that there is a core real event but it

2417
01:45:33,330 --> 01:45:31,230
becomes so subjective that we have

2418
01:45:36,569 --> 01:45:33,340
infused it so much with our own

2419
01:45:39,089 --> 01:45:36,579
expectations that no matter what we do

2420
01:45:41,520 --> 01:45:39,099
we're not going to understand what's the

2421
01:45:43,140 --> 01:45:41,530
source Nick what do you think I mean I

2422
01:45:45,930 --> 01:45:43,150
I'm not going to deny the possibility

2423
01:45:48,180 --> 01:45:45,940
that aliens could be coming here that

2424
01:45:50,790 --> 01:45:48,190
what people believe this happening could

2425
01:45:54,290 --> 01:45:50,800
be happening but the more I've dug into

2426
01:45:58,530 --> 01:45:54,300
the subject I found it to try and prove

2427
01:46:00,180 --> 01:45:58,540
the ATH he's not just hard it's almost

2428
01:46:03,089 --> 01:46:00,190
as if you know - mentioned earlier the

2429
01:46:05,459 --> 01:46:03,099
phenomena itself is somehow elusive like

2430
01:46:07,410 --> 01:46:05,469
it has like a trickster quality to it

2431
01:46:09,720 --> 01:46:07,420
and you also find this in things like

2432
01:46:11,700 --> 01:46:09,730
Bigfoot research a lot most bands -

2433
01:46:13,140 --> 01:46:11,710
where people try and photograph these

2434
01:46:15,750 --> 01:46:13,150
things and the photographs don't come

2435
01:46:17,910 --> 01:46:15,760
out properly or the pictures get lost in

2436
01:46:20,160 --> 01:46:17,920
a house move you know somebody's got a

2437
01:46:22,260 --> 01:46:20,170
bit of metal from the Roswell crash and

2438
01:46:24,440 --> 01:46:22,270
that gets lost you know just just

2439
01:46:26,960 --> 01:46:24,450
reminded me of something we had

2440
01:46:29,510 --> 01:46:26,970
a guy named Doug on the show who says

2441
01:46:31,550 --> 01:46:29,520
he's a UFO abductee and he had this kind

2442
01:46:33,560 --> 01:46:31,560
of situation here when they took this

2443
01:46:36,770 --> 01:46:33,570
was some years back they used regular

2444
01:46:39,260 --> 01:46:36,780
film to take a photograph of UFOs they

2445
01:46:41,030 --> 01:46:39,270
sent it to the developing plant and of

2446
01:46:43,370 --> 01:46:41,040
course of all the things they had taken

2447
01:46:47,150 --> 01:46:43,380
to the developing plant this is the one

2448
01:46:50,090 --> 01:46:47,160
where the role disappeared yeah it's

2449
01:46:52,070 --> 01:46:50,100
similar to for example you know you can

2450
01:46:54,110 --> 01:46:52,080
look at things like you know in the UFO

2451
01:46:55,820 --> 01:46:54,120
subject so they said the evidence to

2452
01:46:58,130 --> 01:46:55,830
Roswell but you can go back again in

2453
01:47:00,230 --> 01:46:58,140
1500 where people said they visited the

2454
01:47:02,540 --> 01:47:00,240
fairy Kingdom and they tried to bring

2455
01:47:04,040 --> 01:47:02,550
something back from the fairy realm and

2456
01:47:06,770 --> 01:47:04,050
they were stopped at the last minute by

2457
01:47:09,470 --> 01:47:06,780
the the fairies it's kind of similar to

2458
01:47:11,540 --> 01:47:09,480
that that whenever people deal with

2459
01:47:13,550 --> 01:47:11,550
whatever these weird phenomena are

2460
01:47:15,080 --> 01:47:13,560
they're never able to get the hard

2461
01:47:17,180 --> 01:47:15,090
physical evidence and that's why I

2462
01:47:19,250 --> 01:47:17,190
sometimes wonder if what we're seeing

2463
01:47:21,830 --> 01:47:19,260
there none of its physical but it's

2464
01:47:24,380 --> 01:47:21,840
almost like a matrix hologram type thing

2465
01:47:27,080 --> 01:47:24,390
that's perhaps designed to instill ideas

2466
01:47:29,840 --> 01:47:27,090
and thoughts in us and manifests and

2467
01:47:31,550 --> 01:47:29,850
changes its appearance to suit the

2468
01:47:33,620 --> 01:47:31,560
people the times and the cultural belief

2469
01:47:36,350 --> 01:47:33,630
system you know 2,000 years ago it

2470
01:47:39,050 --> 01:47:36,360
appearing at his angels and demons 500

2471
01:47:42,350 --> 01:47:39,060
no that makes me think of something that

2472
01:47:45,350 --> 01:47:42,360
I had forgotten about wasn't it faster

2473
01:47:48,230 --> 01:47:45,360
as Betty and Barney Hill were leaving

2474
01:47:50,330 --> 01:47:48,240
the spaceship one of the aliens who

2475
01:47:53,150 --> 01:47:50,340
wanted to give them a book I think and

2476
01:47:55,970 --> 01:47:53,160
another alien stopped the first alien

2477
01:47:57,890 --> 01:47:55,980
from doing it so they allegedly came

2478
01:47:59,870 --> 01:47:57,900
that close to having something that

2479
01:48:03,320 --> 01:47:59,880
would have been proof we would assume

2480
01:48:06,860 --> 01:48:03,330
and at the last minute it didn't happen

2481
01:48:08,650 --> 01:48:06,870
in my anyway because that was staged for

2482
01:48:12,200 --> 01:48:08,660
them well that's what we're saying yeah

2483
01:48:14,480 --> 01:48:12,210
you know they basically knew that they'd

2484
01:48:17,120 --> 01:48:14,490
never give them the book there wouldn't

2485
01:48:18,710 --> 01:48:17,130
always be someone to come up and say no

2486
01:48:20,870 --> 01:48:18,720
you can't give them that book well you

2487
01:48:22,850 --> 01:48:20,880
know there's another thing too if these

2488
01:48:25,730 --> 01:48:22,860
creatures fly to wherever they're from

2489
01:48:27,590 --> 01:48:25,740
are well organized you wouldn't have a

2490
01:48:30,260 --> 01:48:27,600
thing like that happening you wouldn't

2491
01:48:32,909 --> 01:48:30,270
have one alien about to do something

2492
01:48:36,209 --> 01:48:32,919
like that and a superior

2493
01:48:39,569 --> 01:48:36,219
officer say no you can't do that I mean

2494
01:48:41,639 --> 01:48:39,579
that is part of the show on show it's

2495
01:48:44,549 --> 01:48:41,649
the same thing for example as a star map

2496
01:48:47,609 --> 01:48:44,559
do you believe that star map is anything

2497
01:48:52,020 --> 01:48:47,619
more than a show whoever is responsible

2498
01:48:54,120 --> 01:48:52,030
for the show it is a play well they

2499
01:48:55,889 --> 01:48:54,130
didn't actually get the star maps and it

2500
01:48:58,139 --> 01:48:55,899
didn't Betty

2501
01:49:00,479 --> 01:48:58,149
come up with it later from her memories

2502
01:49:03,209 --> 01:49:00,489
I mean they didn't get a physical piece

2503
01:49:04,889 --> 01:49:03,219
of paper with a star map no that was one

2504
01:49:07,319 --> 01:49:04,899
of those memories I think to hypnotic

2505
01:49:09,569 --> 01:49:07,329
yeah Marie right and and it to make a

2506
01:49:11,310 --> 01:49:09,579
long story short you can make many

2507
01:49:13,560 --> 01:49:11,320
different star maps if you're very

2508
01:49:15,989 --> 01:49:13,570
careful about it and all of them will

2509
01:49:18,179 --> 01:49:15,999
apply and therefore none of them will

2510
01:49:21,449 --> 01:49:18,189
apply that's what I think Nick in your

2511
01:49:24,239 --> 01:49:21,459
research for the book contactees did you

2512
01:49:25,979 --> 01:49:24,249
see any evidence there other than the

2513
01:49:28,250 --> 01:49:25,989
fact that there's an FBI file on our

2514
01:49:30,779 --> 01:49:28,260
damn skin other people evidence of

2515
01:49:35,069 --> 01:49:30,789
government intervention and what's going

2516
01:49:37,739 --> 01:49:35,079
on yes any kind of movement like this

2517
01:49:41,250 --> 01:49:37,749
contact these abductees well yeah I mean

2518
01:49:43,049 --> 01:49:41,260
for example in George Adamski I'm George

2519
01:49:45,689 --> 01:49:43,059
Van Tassel were actually both visited

2520
01:49:47,669 --> 01:49:45,699
several times by FBI agents I mean

2521
01:49:50,429 --> 01:49:47,679
that's actually reflected in the file in

2522
01:49:53,129 --> 01:49:50,439
one memorable case two FBI agents based

2523
01:49:55,560 --> 01:49:53,139
in Los Angeles traveled out to Landers

2524
01:49:57,120 --> 01:49:55,570
California and were kind of like you

2525
01:49:58,889 --> 01:49:57,130
know sort of flummoxed and put on the

2526
01:50:00,449 --> 01:49:58,899
spot when they realized they were going

2527
01:50:02,459 --> 01:50:00,459
out to meet this guy living in a cave

2528
01:50:04,589 --> 01:50:02,469
under giant rock but they traveled out

2529
01:50:06,810 --> 01:50:04,599
you know and you know in talking of

2530
01:50:09,060 --> 01:50:06,820
intervention you know they they actually

2531
01:50:10,589 --> 01:50:09,070
went out to the people it was literally

2532
01:50:13,409 --> 01:50:10,599
almost like a Mulder and Scully

2533
01:50:14,909 --> 01:50:13,419
situation of two FBI agents trying to

2534
01:50:17,549 --> 01:50:14,919
get to the bottom of these stories their

2535
01:50:19,500 --> 01:50:17,559
alien encounters in the desert so in

2536
01:50:22,560 --> 01:50:19,510
that respect the government has taken

2537
01:50:24,449 --> 01:50:22,570
like a proactive step to intervene and

2538
01:50:27,689 --> 01:50:24,459
find out what's going on it's not a case

2539
01:50:30,089 --> 01:50:27,699
of just writing these people off now you

2540
01:50:32,100 --> 01:50:30,099
know as to what that means and how we

2541
01:50:34,379 --> 01:50:32,110
interpret it that's a different matter

2542
01:50:35,909 --> 01:50:34,389
but I think what I think has happened is

2543
01:50:37,890 --> 01:50:35,919
it for the most part you know

2544
01:50:39,840 --> 01:50:37,900
governments don't really care

2545
01:50:42,360 --> 01:50:39,850
if somebody sees a light in the sky you

2546
01:50:44,580 --> 01:50:42,370
no big deal I think they they're more

2547
01:50:46,470 --> 01:50:44,590
concerned about cases involving the

2548
01:50:49,020 --> 01:50:46,480
military but I think the main concern

2549
01:50:51,870 --> 01:50:49,030
that governments have is the potential

2550
01:50:54,300 --> 01:50:51,880
way in which the human mind and the

2551
01:50:57,750 --> 01:50:54,310
collective belief systems of people can

2552
01:50:59,610 --> 01:50:57,760
be altered quite radically by encounters

2553
01:51:01,830 --> 01:50:59,620
with UFOs or getting into the subject

2554
01:51:03,540 --> 01:51:01,840
it's kind of like you know I drew up

2555
01:51:05,850 --> 01:51:03,550
earlier on the flower power thing in the

2556
01:51:07,830 --> 01:51:05,860
1960s that was like a Cultural

2557
01:51:10,860 --> 01:51:07,840
Revolution that could have transformed

2558
01:51:12,480 --> 01:51:10,870
the human race but it was stamped on by

2559
01:51:15,900 --> 01:51:12,490
the government because people income

2560
01:51:18,270 --> 01:51:15,910
were afraid of the old conventional ways

2561
01:51:21,420 --> 01:51:18,280
being changed and so you know it was

2562
01:51:24,600 --> 01:51:21,430
basically that whole movement was

2563
01:51:27,030 --> 01:51:24,610
crushed now had you know had it been a

2564
01:51:29,220 --> 01:51:27,040
lie allowed to thrive and continue the

2565
01:51:31,770 --> 01:51:29,230
flower power movement LSD everything

2566
01:51:33,240 --> 01:51:31,780
else who knows what sort of world we're

2567
01:51:36,260 --> 01:51:33,250
living in today could be a far more

2568
01:51:39,180 --> 01:51:36,270
positive one and I think the UFO subject

2569
01:51:42,120 --> 01:51:39,190
potentially offers people a radically

2570
01:51:43,560 --> 01:51:42,130
altered lifestyle and mindsets and I

2571
01:51:45,000 --> 01:51:43,570
don't think they think I think people in

2572
01:51:46,860 --> 01:51:45,010
government know that and they're doing

2573
01:51:48,390 --> 01:51:46,870
whatever they can to prevent that from

2574
01:51:51,180 --> 01:51:48,400
happening course the question is is

2575
01:51:52,410 --> 01:51:51,190
there an external force other than the

2576
01:51:55,350 --> 01:51:52,420
government that might be responsible

2577
01:51:57,660 --> 01:51:55,360
that is orienting ourselves towards a

2578
01:51:59,640 --> 01:51:57,670
direction of course we remember and Jim

2579
01:52:02,970 --> 01:51:59,650
knew him very casually and I knew the

2580
01:52:04,980 --> 01:52:02,980
guy Ray Palmer who some consider one of

2581
01:52:07,290 --> 01:52:04,990
the originators of the UFO field because

2582
01:52:09,750 --> 01:52:07,300
he was co-author of the book with

2583
01:52:12,330 --> 01:52:09,760
Kenneth Arnold and he had fate magazine

2584
01:52:13,830 --> 01:52:12,340
and mentioned flying saucers in amazing

2585
01:52:16,680 --> 01:52:13,840
stories a science fiction magazine

2586
01:52:18,810 --> 01:52:16,690
he said flying saucers are here to make

2587
01:52:24,000 --> 01:52:18,820
us think think about what what do you

2588
01:52:25,620 --> 01:52:24,010
think Nick well you know I think the I'm

2589
01:52:28,200 --> 01:52:25,630
not sure if they want us to think about

2590
01:52:33,000 --> 01:52:28,210
this or think about that I think at

2591
01:52:34,620 --> 01:52:33,010
least part of it is the idea of I think

2592
01:52:37,830 --> 01:52:34,630
the UFO subject more than anything else

2593
01:52:40,050 --> 01:52:37,840
allows people to be individuals you know

2594
01:52:42,120 --> 01:52:40,060
it's like for example regardless of

2595
01:52:45,240 --> 01:52:42,130
whether people believe the contactees or

2596
01:52:46,830 --> 01:52:45,250
not the fact is people like a damn ski

2597
01:52:50,310 --> 01:52:46,840
band tassel bathroom

2598
01:52:51,009 --> 01:52:50,320
Angelo Chee they became individuals they

2599
01:52:53,439 --> 01:52:51,019
became

2600
01:52:56,229 --> 01:52:53,449
people living their lives according to

2601
01:52:58,179 --> 01:52:56,239
their own ways and you know let's not

2602
01:53:01,569 --> 01:52:58,189
give a damn about what society thinks

2603
01:53:03,489 --> 01:53:01,579
about us and I think government's wants

2604
01:53:06,009 --> 01:53:03,499
us to be part of a society they don't

2605
01:53:09,009 --> 01:53:06,019
want us to be free thinking individuals

2606
01:53:11,289 --> 01:53:09,019
and I think the UFO subject because of

2607
01:53:14,739 --> 01:53:11,299
its transformative qualities and

2608
01:53:17,109 --> 01:53:14,749
potentials it allows us all to become

2609
01:53:18,909 --> 01:53:17,119
free thinking individuals following our

2610
01:53:22,119 --> 01:53:18,919
own pathways and a lot of us familiar of

2611
01:53:23,769 --> 01:53:22,129
our subject do that and if that were to

2612
01:53:26,229 --> 01:53:23,779
happen on a massive scale you know he

2613
01:53:27,909 --> 01:53:26,239
could challenge the fabric of society so

2614
01:53:29,949 --> 01:53:27,919
I think that's I think that's what the

2615
01:53:32,829 --> 01:53:29,959
UFO subject is trying to do or has the

2616
01:53:35,679 --> 01:53:32,839
potential to do is to allow each of us

2617
01:53:38,169 --> 01:53:35,689
to elevate ourselves to individuals not

2618
01:53:40,719 --> 01:53:38,179
to be part of the herd so to speak and

2619
01:53:43,509 --> 01:53:40,729
Nick I want to ask you how many pages

2620
01:53:47,799 --> 01:53:43,519
did you say were in Georgia dance keys

2621
01:53:49,839 --> 01:53:47,809
pri pile George Adamski there's about 95

2622
01:53:53,439 --> 01:53:49,849
George Van Tassel's I can tell you

2623
01:53:55,779 --> 01:53:53,449
exactly which 398 or they am powerful is

2624
01:53:57,789 --> 01:53:55,789
much bigger than a dancer yeah one of

2625
01:53:59,409 --> 01:53:57,799
the reasons why is bigger is that I'm

2626
01:54:01,209 --> 01:53:59,419
not sure how they got hold of them but

2627
01:54:04,359 --> 01:54:01,219
the FBI actually got hold of some

2628
01:54:07,059 --> 01:54:04,369
advantage newsletters and some of the

2629
01:54:08,859 --> 01:54:07,069
pages of the newsletters comprise parts

2630
01:54:11,169 --> 01:54:08,869
of the file as well now some of the

2631
01:54:13,509 --> 01:54:11,179
contactee FBI files are smaller I got

2632
01:54:15,849 --> 01:54:13,519
Frank strangers FBI file which is

2633
01:54:17,709 --> 01:54:15,859
actually only about nine pages long and

2634
01:54:19,659 --> 01:54:17,719
one of funny things is actually one of

2635
01:54:23,679 --> 01:54:19,669
the pages is a letter from Richard Hall

2636
01:54:26,739 --> 01:54:23,689
to the FBI basically putting Frank

2637
01:54:29,259 --> 01:54:26,749
strangers in a bad light so it was

2638
01:54:31,029 --> 01:54:29,269
almost like you know that some of these

2639
01:54:33,069 --> 01:54:31,039
files contain letters that have been

2640
01:54:35,439 --> 01:54:33,079
fighting you know from April fit in the

2641
01:54:38,469 --> 01:54:35,449
UFO community well one of the reasons

2642
01:54:41,199 --> 01:54:38,479
that Adamski was visited by the FBI of

2643
01:54:44,469 --> 01:54:41,209
course was the fact that he receives

2644
01:54:48,279 --> 01:54:44,479
this letter from this mysterious person

2645
01:54:52,750 --> 01:54:48,289
in the face of uncle Raymond

2646
01:54:56,129 --> 01:54:52,760
strength and he was pleased with the

2647
01:54:58,220 --> 01:54:56,139
letter because it seemed to endorse

2648
01:55:02,180 --> 01:54:58,230
unofficially his view

2649
01:55:05,120 --> 01:55:02,190
his experiences and so naturally you'd

2650
01:55:07,790 --> 01:55:05,130
ask he wanted to make the most of it and

2651
01:55:10,700 --> 01:55:07,800
the FBI as I understand it came to him

2652
01:55:14,150 --> 01:55:10,710
and said this is a hoax this is not a

2653
01:55:16,340 --> 01:55:14,160
genuine letter from the State Department

2654
01:55:18,370 --> 01:55:16,350
and we want you to stop the publicizing

2655
01:55:21,440 --> 01:55:18,380
it because it's not a real letter and

2656
01:55:24,620 --> 01:55:21,450
after that happened of course and esky

2657
01:55:26,660 --> 01:55:24,630
was more adamant than ever that it was

2658
01:55:29,810 --> 01:55:26,670
real whether he actually thought it was

2659
01:55:31,820 --> 01:55:29,820
really don't know but he got a louder in

2660
01:55:34,280 --> 01:55:31,830
talking about it after the visit from

2661
01:55:37,460 --> 01:55:34,290
the FBI and as we all know would too

2662
01:55:39,410 --> 01:55:37,470
short touch this that a certain the late

2663
01:55:42,020 --> 01:55:39,420
great Barker and Jim Mosley were

2664
01:55:44,979 --> 01:55:42,030
responsible there are rumors to the

2665
01:55:47,840 --> 01:55:44,989
effect that the straight letter was

2666
01:55:50,479 --> 01:55:47,850
conceived and executed by the great

2667
01:55:53,120 --> 01:55:50,489
Barker and Jim Mullen yeah in a less

2668
01:55:57,440 --> 01:55:53,130
than sober condition I would mandrin I

2669
01:56:01,190 --> 01:55:57,450
would expect yeah I always told gray I

2670
01:56:04,160 --> 01:56:01,200
said you know I'm younger than Gregg was

2671
01:56:07,130 --> 01:56:04,170
I mean if he was alive he'd be 15 or so

2672
01:56:09,590 --> 01:56:07,140
years older than I I said if I outlive

2673
01:56:12,320 --> 01:56:09,600
you lies that I'm going to confess to

2674
01:56:14,570 --> 01:56:12,330
the Streif letter because it was fun

2675
01:56:18,200 --> 01:56:14,580
doing it but in the long run and we've

2676
01:56:20,930 --> 01:56:18,210
got to set the record straight and show

2677
01:56:23,030 --> 01:56:20,940
people the rest of the story and he said

2678
01:56:25,400 --> 01:56:23,040
oh no you shouldn't do that but when he

2679
01:56:28,310 --> 01:56:25,410
died and the very next issue of some

2680
01:56:30,979 --> 01:56:28,320
news I had the whole thing and one other

2681
01:56:32,810 --> 01:56:30,989
comment I'd make shows the will to

2682
01:56:35,990 --> 01:56:32,820
believe I can't remember the man's name

2683
01:56:39,170 --> 01:56:36,000
now but there's a guy in California who

2684
01:56:41,330 --> 01:56:39,180
is a hardcore danske follower because

2685
01:56:44,120 --> 01:56:41,340
there's still some kind of cult or small

2686
01:56:48,260 --> 01:56:44,130
group that believes in that they asked

2687
01:56:50,720 --> 01:56:48,270
these stories and promotes them and this

2688
01:56:53,450 --> 01:56:50,730
fellow I talked him a couple of times on

2689
01:56:56,630 --> 01:56:53,460
the phone up until it's probably less

2690
01:56:59,479 --> 01:56:56,640
than five years ago he still insisted on

2691
01:57:01,430 --> 01:56:59,489
believing the faithful that there was

2692
01:57:03,770 --> 01:57:01,440
genuine I'll tell you what we have to

2693
01:57:05,570 --> 01:57:03,780
just about end it there Jim tell our

2694
01:57:09,470 --> 01:57:05,580
listeners where they can learn more

2695
01:57:10,750 --> 01:57:09,480
about saucer smear if you want to get

2696
01:57:13,080 --> 01:57:10,760
sausage smear and

2697
01:57:17,250 --> 01:57:13,090
learn the real truths about everything

2698
01:57:19,779 --> 01:57:17,260
right to this office near HP o box one

2699
01:57:24,759 --> 01:57:19,789
709 Key West

2700
01:57:27,520 --> 01:57:24,769
Seward's Key West Florida 3 3 o 4 1 and

2701
01:57:30,220 --> 01:57:27,530
we will be glad to inform you as to how

2702
01:57:32,229 --> 01:57:30,230
you can become informed and that would

2703
01:57:34,870 --> 01:57:32,239
be very informative Jim but we'll tell

2704
01:57:36,399 --> 01:57:34,880
our listeners one more time the address

2705
01:57:39,399 --> 01:57:36,409
because they're running to get their

2706
01:57:40,839 --> 01:57:39,409
pens and their paper paper right now

2707
01:57:44,350 --> 01:57:40,849
there's the paper going to give the

2708
01:57:47,140 --> 01:57:44,360
address I can feel psychically thousands

2709
01:57:49,899 --> 01:57:47,150
of people scurrying across thousands of

2710
01:57:52,180 --> 01:57:49,909
rooms looking for paper and looking for

2711
01:57:55,270 --> 01:57:52,190
pencils and of course none of them will

2712
01:57:58,359 --> 01:57:55,280
ever find paper or pencil so nobody's

2713
01:58:01,720 --> 01:57:58,369
gonna write in but one more time TR box

2714
01:58:04,180 --> 01:58:01,730
one 709 Key West for the three three oh

2715
01:58:06,879 --> 01:58:04,190
four oh one Nick Redfern word we find

2716
01:58:08,200 --> 01:58:06,889
more of your writings and what's your

2717
01:58:10,839 --> 01:58:08,210
next book gonna be about

2718
01:58:14,290 --> 01:58:10,849
well people could find more at Nick

2719
01:58:16,359 --> 01:58:14,300
Redfern com it's my website and I do a

2720
01:58:18,310 --> 01:58:16,369
lot of most of my writing I do on blogs

2721
01:58:20,200 --> 01:58:18,320
so if people link to the website and go

2722
01:58:23,080 --> 01:58:20,210
to the blog section now got blogs and

2723
01:58:26,049 --> 01:58:23,090
everything from UFOs Bigfoots

2724
01:58:28,379 --> 01:58:26,059
Hollywood scandal weird government files

2725
01:58:31,240 --> 01:58:28,389
all sorts of things and I try and update

2726
01:58:33,669 --> 01:58:31,250
most of them at least a couple of times

2727
01:58:36,640 --> 01:58:33,679
a week some of them daily and so that's

2728
01:58:39,339 --> 01:58:36,650
Nick I've gotta say I just read

2729
01:58:42,609 --> 01:58:39,349
yesterday your contribution to in

2730
01:58:48,250 --> 01:58:42,619
Beckley the book mind control sex slave

2731
01:58:50,140 --> 01:58:48,260
and the CIA I think that's your portion

2732
01:58:53,370 --> 01:58:50,150
of the book is reasonable but the book

2733
01:58:55,899 --> 01:58:53,380
itself is not reasonable but anyways I

2734
01:58:57,009 --> 01:58:55,909
do a lot of writing for Tim's books and

2735
01:58:59,379 --> 01:58:57,019
even you know puts out some interesting

2736
01:59:01,540 --> 01:58:59,389
and some funny and wacky titles and some

2737
01:59:03,339 --> 01:59:01,550
really hard to find ones as well you

2738
01:59:04,990 --> 01:59:03,349
know I mean that the people looking for

2739
01:59:07,660 --> 01:59:05,000
four years and then they'll pop up

2740
01:59:09,370 --> 01:59:07,670
through team so it's a which I think and

2741
01:59:12,040 --> 01:59:09,380
we've all known Tim Bentley for three or

2742
01:59:14,319 --> 01:59:12,050
four hundred years I've known Jim Mosley

2743
01:59:17,620 --> 01:59:14,329
most of my life which is a good thing

2744
01:59:19,479 --> 01:59:17,630
and we're happy Jim is still here to

2745
01:59:20,709 --> 01:59:19,489
regale us with stories of the past

2746
01:59:22,660 --> 01:59:20,719
present and future

2747
01:59:23,830 --> 01:59:22,670
gyah Mosley thank you so much for

2748
01:59:26,200 --> 01:59:23,840
joining us on the

2749
01:59:28,660 --> 01:59:26,210
our caste well thank you for having me

2750
01:59:30,100 --> 01:59:28,670
and I am going to hang up at this time

2751
01:59:32,790 --> 01:59:30,110
you don't have to hang up just stay

2752
01:59:35,530 --> 01:59:32,800
where you are for a second Nick Redfern

2753
01:59:37,390 --> 01:59:35,540
welcome aboard to the power caste family

2754
01:59:38,080 --> 01:59:37,400
we look forward to having you back real

2755
01:59:39,729 --> 01:59:38,090
soon now

2756
01:59:40,420 --> 01:59:39,739
well thanks Jane and that it had a good

2757
01:59:46,610 --> 01:59:40,430
time thank you

2758
01:59:57,630 --> 01:59:54,000
the power over this competition tune in